Parent
WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 593
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: attitudes
by Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
2) Re: Part 3 of Re: Women's Hockey
by email@hidden
3) Re: Girls playing down in age
by email@hidden
4) Re: attitudes
by Tina JW Danzig
5) Women's Shoulder Pads
by Laura
6) RE: The Size Issue
by Jennifer Berger
7) Another Comment on Size
by "James D. Lorino"
8) RE: The Size Issue
by Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
9) Re:Age vs Size
by email@hidden
10) Re:Age vs Size
by email@hidden (MISS CAROLYN R SIMON)
11) Age vs Size & what about my poor little darling???
by email@hidden (Jules Smith)
12) Re: Age vs Size & what about my poor little darling???
by Peggy Cunha
13) Re: Girls teams
by Michelle Langley
14) Re: Part 3 of Re: Women's Hockey
by "C. Ritchie Schoepf"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:34:03 -0400
From: Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: attitudes
Message-ID:
>In a message dated 97-06-04 17:41:44 EDT, email@hidden (James D. Lorino)
>writes:
>
><< Just a few comments:
>
>Their attitudes and cussing is common - BUT NOT ACCEPTABLE. >>
Speak for yourself. Our girls team is made up of a group of wonderful,
funny, athletic bunch of kids. I have heard a couple of mild oaths
(nothing more than a parent dropping a glass on the kitchen floor) but that
is it. Its the giggling, teasing, and fun that keeps these kids going.
Sometimes I have to go into the locker room and drag my kid out because its
getting late and I can't stay at the rink til midnight waiting for these
kids to stop playing. On the ice, I have never hear a word, and there has
never been a complaint. Each team is different.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:01:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Part 3 of Re: Women's Hockey
Message-ID:
Womenâs Hockey Questionnaire
Please answer the questions and send it back to me at email@hidden.
Thank you for your assistance
Do you support womenâs hockey?
If so what team do you support?
Do you believe that women should play hockey?
Womenâs hockey prohibits body-checking do you agree with this?
Where do you live?
Are you Male or Female?
Age:
10-15
16-20
21-25
26-30
31-35
36-40
40+
If you are female do you play hockey?
Which Team?
How long have you been playing?
If you had the chance to play womenâs hockey would you?
How do you feel about a professional womanâs hockey league?
Would you watch womenâs hockey on TV?
Do you go and see live games?
Do you believe that women can play in the NHL?
What do you believe can be done to promote womenâs hockey?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:06:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Girls playing down in age
Message-ID:
In England girls are actually allowed to play 2 years down so a 21 year old
can actually paly for a 19 and under male team.
Nicci
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:11:04 -0400
From: Tina JW Danzig
To: "INTERNET:email@hidden"
Subject: Re: attitudes
Message-ID:
I hope that this becomes the norm for girls teams. It's good to hear that
you have that kind of team.
Tina
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:34:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: Laura
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Women's Shoulder Pads
Message-ID:
Hi,
I just wanted to let listniks know that I tried on a pair of Louisville
women's shoulder pads and really liked them. My local skate shop was
holding a pair for someone else so I tried them. They actually had room
for my breasts! What a concept! Anyway, they are ordering two different
sizes for me to try on and I will buy the size that fits the best. I'll
let you know what I think of them after I play in them.
Laura
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:19:19 -0700
From: Jennifer Berger
To: "'email@hidden'"
Subject: RE: The Size Issue
Message-ID:
I'd like to add my 2 cents worth briefly to the size argument. In the
three months I've been playing, I've been attending morning stick times
twice a week and women's team practice once a week. I am 5 feet
tall (below average no matter whose stats you look at). In the mornings
during pickup games I have gotten leveled (accidentally - you know
when neither of you can stop in time) by guys who were at least 1 foot
taller than I. I had week-long bruises as a result. One of the coaches
for the women's team, however, who is not very tall himself, constantly
reminds me how the fact that I am small and therefore have a low
center of gravity can work for me in avoiding getting knocked over.
Every time this coach passes me, he reminds me to keep my knees bent in order to
balance myself. When I do this in pickup games in the mornings with the guys,
I have found it is much easier to stay on my feet. Of course if it was Eric
Lindros running into me I wouldn't have a chance, but in reality how many Eric
Lindroses are out there skating in morning pickup games? Hockey is rough
and you will get hit. I think one of the most valuable skills small players can
learn is how to skate well (to outskate the bigger players) and how to take
a hit and sustain as little damage as possible (as well as getting right back up
and laughing in the face of the sympathetic "Are you ok?" questions). What valuable life
lessons for young girls to learn!!!
Jennifer
#68
----------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 11:56:47 -0500
From: "James D. Lorino"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Another Comment on Size
Message-ID:
I was fortunate enough to attend all of the Men's NCAA National
Championship games in Milwaukee this year. My data is not totally accurate
(my program is at home), but the Hoogesteen (sp?) brothers of North Dakota
State were the stars of the tournament - One of them was the MVP. If
memory serves me right, the taller of the two was 5'6", the other maybe
5'5". I don't believe either of them topped 155 lbs. Anyhow, point is
they were both tiny.
In one of the articles in the tournament program, it was said they took a
flyer on one of the brothers when they recruited him, then as a "favor"
they brought his brother in.
Nice favor.
James Lorino
Waukesha County Youth Hockey Association
Girls Level Director
Brookfield, WI USA
-----------------
James D. Lorino
email@hidden
Brookfield, WI USA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:54:41 -0400
From: Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
To: email@hidden
Subject: RE: The Size Issue
Message-ID:
My 11 year old daughter is going up to PeeWee and we spent most of the
winter worrying and writing letters, and asking questions on this line and
youth hockey for help in how to keep her down. The best advice was work on
her skating ( the if you can't catch them, you can't hit them philosophy)
and make sure she knows how to give and receive checks. Well, she is 4'8"
and about 90 pounds. She started off as a figure skater so her skating is
beautiful. We also kept giving her lessons and did some checking work. By
the end of the year, she was the team enforcer, got some nice little
penalties because Squirt is non-checking (although had she been a PeeWee,
they would have been righteous hits) and had grown incredibly because we
just put up and shut up about keeping her back. Every time we talked about
staying down, she felt diminished. She equated herself with the kids who
couldn't play, not with the team's assistant captain, which she was. Don't
get me wrong, I am not happy about the size difference and the problems
that engenders, but Jess is tough, spirited, and a good little hockey
player. We can't take that away from her by constant worry. If we were
worried for her safety all the time, we would have put her in badminton,
not hockey. My mom spent years in the emergency room with my brother, and
he was a runner! If we are crazy enough to let our kids on the ice, we
have to give them the best physical and psychological equipment and let
them go. So, USA Hockey isn't going to change, and neither will the
Canadians. If we keep knocking on their doors, they will try to do
something to keep girls out and put them back in ringette. There are
plenty of options for everyone. Boys, girls, elite girls, house leagues
etc. Not everyone has them in their backyard, but not everyone has a flute
teacher or calligraphy instructor in the neighborhood either. Good luck to
all of us and our daughters.
Debbie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 97 10:51:20 -0800
From: email@hidden
To:
Subject: Re:Age vs Size
Message-ID:
Subject: Age vs Size
Author: various
Date: 6/4/97 6:08 PM
___________________________________________________
Geez...Chill out people. I only suggested size as one way to reclass divisions.
And to answer one notable reply...
>...we can't try to build an amalgamated rainbow coalition so everyone can
tiptoe happily through youth hockey. Hockey (and life!) is a competitive,
rough, sometimes violent sport.
Excuse me, but can I point out that many sports are governed by size and not to
make it a "rainbow coalition", is this elitist treatment on their part. Is not
wrestling by weight? Is not boxing? Basketball (recreational) by height? Even
Competitive Trail Riding is by weight divisions. Are these sports that you
tiptoe through? OH NO, but these aren't hockey! Fine I was just pointing out
that to give more equality to the sport, especially where girls are playing on
coed teams, that size might be a factor. I also suggested this as a NONSEXIST
approach, because size IS a factor in hockey (maybe not height) for both a
female player or a male player. ASK Fleury or Kariya or Gretzky.
We live in a area where there are NO GIRLS TEAMS, other than the state team. My
daughter has been competing with the boys for years now. I was expressing an
observation that I had, and also one felt by other parents, who's SONs are below
average in size and even though they love hockey, have had serious injuries due
to size differences. Are we going to have our children maimed in the name of
"fair play" or look at ways to protect them so that they can continue to enjoy
the game. It is a game, you know? Don't we have them wear helmets and padding
and mouthpieces for safety consideration? I was just suggesting that size
could also be considered.
I agree that we need some sort of standardization on divisions between Canada
and the US and I do believe that the Canadian system seems to work better.
And to Jules Smith,
Check your figures again, average height for a women is 5'6" (sorry I was off
by an inch) not 5'2. And I was stating average ADULT heights, not 17 year olds.
> Perhaps you should poll the older groups as to how they would feel playing
with people as much as four years younger (oh, but she's BIG!).
The 18 year olds had no problem playing with my daughter, since she could skate
rings around them and puck handle with the best and at 5'2" and 130# at age 13,
I don't think an 18 year old thought she was BIG!
> There are also the VERY important characteristics of ambition,
maturity, ego and the ability to comprehend tactical issues. It is a rare
13-year-old who possesses the same level of these traits as a 16-year-old.
I also think you will find that a 13 year old girl probably DOES posses the
maturity, comprehension, ambition, but thank goodness not the ego, of a 16 year
old male.
>but are you sure it isn't that the energy the younger players possess makes up
for the acquired skills they do not?
I think a Bantam tier team (AAA) does possess the skills, actually their skill
level was far superior to the women's team. Most of the Bantam players had been
playing longer than the women! 8-)
>And there is an inherent danger in the sport of Hockey. Stop whining about
getting hit and LEARN how to take a hit. (I myself am 5'1" and believe me,
playing with men- it was the first thing I learned. They never heard me
complain, and they never will.)
My daughter has never whined about getting hit and knows how to take and give a
hit, and has never complained, even after receiving a concussion after one of
her own defense men slammed her into the boards.
I didn't reply to the list to be flamed here. Again it was just a suggestion
for discussion. I don't have to worry about this issue from now on. My
daughter is heading off to college and will be playing there on a Women's team.
Although size has never stopped her in any sport, she also was the only female
team member of her High School water polo team and was named MVP this year,
besides being team captain.
And let me conclude with this...
As a female that is 5'9" (well above the average, no matter which one you use)
and I was that height at 13, I have had to deal with the size issues all my
life. I never looked for special treatment because of my size, but I have seen
the advantage of being equal in height with men in all facits of life, and this
also is a fact of life.
Peggy
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 17:15:32, -0500
From: email@hidden (MISS CAROLYN R SIMON)
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re:Age vs Size
Message-ID:
<>
Yes, please DO ask Theo Fleury, Paul Kariya, and Wayne Gretzky what
they think about the size issue. When Gretzky was a tiny boy, he was
so far superior to the kids his own age that they stuck him with kids
2, 3, 4 years older than him. They didn't even make jerseys for that
age division for a kid as small as him (this is why he currently
still tucks his jersey in on one side.)! I would be shocked to hear
if he complained about it now, being that he is small, at about 5'9
or 5'10 (I don't care WHAT he is listed at) and holds 50 some-odd NHL
records. Imagine if they had put HIM in a division his age, or
laughably, even YOUNGER than him? Size has little to do with ability
or skill.
Which brings me to Theo Fleury. Listed at 5'5 or 5'6, he appears
to be around 5'4. I have still photos of Theo being lifted 6 feet in
the air on a check by an LA King. He gets knocked around the league,
but he never complained a day in his life about his size. Sure, he'd
like to be bigger...who wouldn't? But I'd say he's doing damn well in
his own right at his size. Another point...take a guy like Eric
Lindros, put him in little Fleury's body, and I'll laugh if he scores
more than 5 goals a year. It's about heart. Not size.
So, all of you mothers out there who seem far too defensive
about sending your little girls out on the ice. If women's hockey has
any hope at all in gaining publicity over the next few years,
bringing people to court over age divisions isn't going to do
anything. Any respect we currently have (which is barely nothing) of
the common citizen will go out the window. They WILL say "Haha they
think girls are good as boys, but all they do is complain. Face it,
girls can't cut it!"
If you start your daughters young playing in boys leagues,
they will not notice the difference of checking...because it'll be
what they're used to. If they switch from figure skating at like the
age of 12 where the only contact they face is between them and the
ice, to hockey when they get knocked around, of COURSE your 4'8 90 lb
child is going to bruise easier. Either pull them out of the league
or teach them some tactics to defend themselves. Somebody, I believe
her name was Jennifer, mentioned how her coach called to her to bend
her knees more to keep a low center of gravity. When your kid is in
the corner against a guy 1, 2, 3 heads taller than her...tell her to
get as low to the ice as possible, so if they go to hit her, all they
catch is glass.
Take these people to court and voice your worthless complaints
about size for all to hear. I'm sorry. I am 16. Women's hockey is not
going to prosper in time for me to take advantage of it. Hopefully,
someday my daughters will be able to thrive in it...and basically,
what it comes down to is: If you can't take the heat, get off the ice.
Don't damage the reputation of our sport cause your kid is small...
whatever the national average may be.
-Carolyn #21
NJ Selects
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 97 17:18:51 -0400
From: email@hidden (Jules Smith)
To: email@hidden
Subject: Age vs Size & what about my poor little darling???
Message-ID: <9706052118.AA16137@pinion>
Peggy-
I did not intend for you to feel "flamed'. However, when one is making an
argument it usually helps to have one's facts straight. The reason I
incluided the average heights of 14 & 17-year olds was to show the list the
average size difference between like-aged kids. You were making a case for
kids' size- were you not?
Also, the ONE accepted human factors data by government, aerospace,
military, domestic, engineers & designers(including designers of hockey
equipment), architects, etc... is the data I included. The author of the
"Human Factors" bible is Wesley Woodson, President of Man Factors, Inc.- a
human factors research and consulting firm in San Diego. Perhaps you'd like
to tell him he's got it all wrong... I'd still like to know which utopian
society your "average" height data reflects.
>Excuse me, but can I point out that many sports are governed by size...
And yes, you are excused. There is no corollary between wrestling or boxing
and "hockey". Hockey is a sport (or game, if you like) where the victory is
gleaned by a *team* scoring more goals-and defending their own zone better-
than the other team. Wrestling and boxing are each "mano a mano" contests,
where the whole point is to use one's body in a forceful, physical manner
against one's opponent in order to win a singular "I'm the strongest dude"
title. That is the reason there are size classes in boxing and wrestling.
Basketball's objective is to put the ball thru a hoop which is 10 feet high,
so it is glaringly obvious that a taller person would thus have an advantage
over a shorter one.
>Fine I was just pointing out that to give more equality to the sport,
especially where girls are playing on coed teams, that size might be a factor.
Why are you rallying to give more *equality* to the sport? It has existed
(and ruled in some countries) in its modern format since the late 19th
century. Women and girls have also played the sport all along. An aside:
The Hockey Hall of Fame in Toronto has in its collection a beautiful etching
from the 1650's of early settlers(men, women & boys&girls) playing pond hockey.
There are other options for "vertically challenged" kids- ringette,
broomball, curling, floor hockey, field hockey(ooops! that's another
dangerous one!), and even in-line hockey if their parents feel they have not
yet grown enough for Ice Hockey.
>We live in an area where there are NO GIRLS TEAMS, other than the state team.
Then my response to you is: use some of the recent information sent to this
list and get out there and START ONE!!! Or, use your parent's wise
judgement and suggest one of the other options listed above. Geez, what if
the hockey parents of the past four decades had adopted your mindset? I
shudder to think. I wonder if members of the Women's Olympic Ice Hockey
teams ever complained growing up that they were afraid of the "big" kids on
their teams? (Most of these fine athletes grew up playing with- gasp!-
boys.) Plus, IMHO, it gives them tons of self-confidence.
There will never be *equality* in hockey (or any sport) for all
genders/colors/ages/sizes/sexual preferences- get used to it, and you'll do
allright. ;)
Jules Smith #8 Captain, Shooters
Shut up & SKATE!!!
Intelligent Automation Systems, Inc.
149 Sidney St. Cambridge, MA 02139
617.354.3830 fax:617.547.9727
e-mail: email@hidden Find us on the Web! " www.ias.com"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 16:16:08 -0700
From: Peggy Cunha
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Age vs Size & what about my poor little darling???
Message-ID:
Jules Smith wrote:
>
> Peggy-
>
> I did not intend for you to feel "flamed'. However, when one is making an
> argument it usually helps to have one's facts straight. The reason I
> incluided the average heights of 14 & 17-year olds was to show the list the
> average size difference between like-aged kids. You were making a case for
> kids' size- were you not?
I said that it was a fact of life that men are larger than women and
stated the insurance companies statistics for the US. Yours must be for
world averages, because I have never seen 5'2" as an average for an
American woman. If that were the case, then I must be an Amazon. My
daught at 5'4" is in the 20th percentile for her age. According to your
statistics she is well above average. Maybe the doctors have gotten the
wrong chart too?
You show a myoptic view of hockey and seem unwilling to discuss change.
Where did you get your
neanterthal mentality? Rules in sports change. I was pointed out that
you do not have to be elitist to look at a sport differently and try to
improve it.
> Why are you rallying to give more *equality* to the sport? It has existed
> (and ruled in some countries) in its modern format since the late 19th
> century.
The rules change yearly. Rules are there to create equality, otherwise
we would not need rules in the game.
> An aside:
> The Hockey Hall of Fame in Toronto has in its collection a beautiful etching
> from the 1650's of early settlers(men, women & boys&girls) playing pond hockey.
Check your dates, I have been there and seen the etchings, they are from
the 1800's
> Then my response to you is: use some of the recent information sent to this
> list and get out there and START ONE!!!
We are trying to promote girls hockey teams, but at this point we have a
limited number of girls playing and until we can enroll more girls into
the hockey tech program and increase the numbers, then our girls have to
play on the coed teams. Besides, my daughter is leaving the area and
youth hockey that has consumed our last 5 years will soon be a thing of
the past.
> I wonder if members of the Women's Olympic Ice Hockey teams ever complained growing up
> that they were afraid of the "big" kids on their teams? (Most of these fine athletes
> grew up playing with- gasp!- boys.) Plus, IMHO, it gives them tons of self-confidence.
I wish you would GROW UP. Don't you read what I write??? I said my
daughter does play with the boys in two sports. Has never complained
about playing with the boys, nor asked for special consideration. She
does it on her own merit and I have never questioned her
self-confidence. I was making an observation based on things I have
seen over the last 5 years being involved in youth hockey.
My daughter has been recruited by no less than 4 colleges to play with
them. She is an honor roll student and
a Scholar Athlete. She has made it in the world on her merit, no thanks
to the inequalities that do exist, like the prejudice of coaches not to
pick a girl for the team, even if she is the better player, because she
is "too small".
> There will never be *equality* in hockey (or any sport) for all
> genders/colors/ages/sizes/sexual preferences- get used to it, and you'll do
> allright. ;)
If that is the case then why all the discrimination cases that are
hitting the courts and the whole Title IX
issue???? We have come a long way baby, but we have far to go even
yet.
> Intelligent Automation Systems, Inc.
>From my opinion the only thing intelligent at your company, must be the
automated systems. IMHO!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 19:36:19 -0400
From: Michelle Langley
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Girls teams
Message-ID:
Okay, You people are starting to scare me. Next year I will be a
freshman in high school. I plan on playing(trying out) for the HS Hockey
team. I am an advid in-line hockey player, but I have to admit I have
never played ice hockey in my life. And now there is this constant talk
about the size and age differences on coed hockey teams. I am 14, 5'6",
and about 143#. Next year If I make the team I'll be playing against
seniors practicly twice my size. Okay thats a little exageration, but
you get my point. I have no idea how the guys will react to having a
girl on there team, but I am ready, or atleast I thought I was ready, to
play against them no matter how big they are. Since I started following
the HS team, no girls have played. Hey, there's a first time for
everything!
Michelle
Future Howell Highlander(I hope!)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 16:36:57 -0700
From: "C. Ritchie Schoepf"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Part 3 of Re: Women's Hockey
Message-ID:
email@hidden wrote:
>
> Womenâs Hockey Questionnaire
>
> Please answer the questions and send it back to me at email@hidden.
>
> Thank you for your assistance
>
> Do you support womenâs hockey? Yes
>
> If so what team do you support?
>
> Do you believe that women should play hockey? Yes
>
> Womenâs hockey prohibits body-checking do you agree with this? Yes
>
> Where do you live? Cincinnati, Ohio USA
>
> Are you Male or Female? Female
>
> Age:
> 10-15
> 16-20
> 21-25
> 26-30 33
> 31-35
> 36-40
> 40+
>
> If you are female do you play hockey? Yes
>
> Which Team? The Ohio CornFed Women
>
> How long have you been playing? 24 years on and off
>
> If you had the chance to play womenâs hockey would you?
>
> How do you feel about a professional womanâs hockey league? Great
>
> Would you watch womenâs hockey on TV? Yes
>
> Do you go and see live games? Yes
>
> Do you believe that women can play in the NHL? I think a Womens Pro League would be better
>
> What do you believe can be done to promote womenâs hockey? I believe the 98' Olympics are going to help a great deal.
--
See ya Later,
C. Ritchie Schoepf
http://pw1.netcom.com/~ritchie2/CornFed.html
------------------------------
End of WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 593
*********************************