Parent
WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 654
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: spam
by Anne Paulson
2) Re: Off Ice Insurance
by Maura Grogan
3) Re: Off Ice Insurance
by email@hidden
4) Old photos and video tape footage going back 20+ years
by "Ashmun, Julia D"
5) Re: Off Ice Insurance
by email@hidden
6) Change Room Dynamics..
by "Kristen M. Ede"
7) Re: Off Ice Insurance
by Maura Grogan
8) Change Room Dynamics.. -Reply
by "Joanna L. Avery"
9) Re: Change Room Dynamics..
by Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
10) Re: Change Room Dynamics..
by "Phil & Debbie Cottrell"
11) Re: Change Room Dynamics..
by Louise
12) Re: Change Room Dynamics..
by Chuq Von Rospach
13) Re: Change Room Dynamics..
by email@hidden
14) Re: Change Room Dynamics..
by Chuck Collins
15) Re: Change Room Dynamics..
by email@hidden (Jules Smith)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:05:28 -0700
From: Anne Paulson
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: spam
Message-ID:
Chuq says:
>
> you're getting [spam] because the entire universe is getting that stuff.
> Honest. It has nothing to do with the list. I'll be happy for you to
> prove me wrong, but trust me, I spend a lot more time fighting this
> stuff than most folks on the list realize -- because I'm quite good at
> keeping it off the list.
>
Certainly there's no spam coming from Plaidworks, but I wouldn't be surprised
if some spamming slime-mold was harvesting addresses of posters. There's
not a whole lot Chuq can do about that.
-- Anne "need to de-spam my mailbox too" Paulson
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:37:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Maura Grogan
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Off Ice Insurance
Message-ID:
A group of us is looking to put together an advanced girls/womens hockey
clinic in late September. We want to do a weekend of on-ice practice,
chalk talk and off-ice conditioning. One of our players told us that
insurance will cover the under-18 girls when we're on the ice (we're all
signed up through USA Hockey) but that we organizers are liable if one of
the girls is hurt during off-ice conditioning, even if her parents sign a
waiver.
Does anyone have any advice or information? Many thanks in advance.
Maura Grogan
email@hidden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:28:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Off Ice Insurance
Message-ID:
It would be best to check with you District's Risk Manager. That information
is available in your District Guide Book or through the USA Hockey web page.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:35:25 -0400
From: "Ashmun, Julia D"
To: "'email@hidden'"
Subject: Old photos and video tape footage going back 20+ years
Message-ID:
To: Anyone (USA, Canadian, Europe, etc.)
From: Women's Ice Hockey Fund
Subject: Old photos and video tape footage going back 20+ years
As we draw closer to the Olympics, more authors and media people as
asking for copies of old photographs and any type or quality of old
video footage of women's ice hockey. We're especially interested in the
friendship tournaments in Alaska (18xx), Mpls (1910) and Cleveland
(1920) or any other picture from that time frame forward to 1977. If
you have any old photos or old video clips, please contact me via email
at email@hidden or phone 603-382-1537 or address WIHF 21 Seavey
Rd, Danville, NH 03819.
Thank you.
Julia D. Ashmun, Director
Women's Ice Hockey Fund
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:41:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Off Ice Insurance
Message-ID:
Where is the clinic going to be held? And who is running it? Also, is it open
to anyone who wants to attend?
Thanks,
Kellie # 30
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:11:31 -0400
From: "Kristen M. Ede"
To:
Subject: Change Room Dynamics..
Message-ID:
Hey all,
Just thought that I would share my experiences regarding the thread about
changing with the men. (sorry about the length..I initially intended to be
brief..)
Typically I have had nothing but positive experiences co-habitating with
the men in the locker rooms. I completely agree that the change room
dynamics support team building and build camaraderie. Although I am
generally quite private (even with the women), I really feel left out
changing by myself in another change room. I too, wear a T-shirt and
shorts under my equipment (and change those in private) and I have made an
absolute art of keeping my eyes down (i.e. tying and re-tying laces etc..)
in uncomfortable situations ( yes there IS always one in every group)
So, when I recently went to a hockey camp in the Toronto area that was
mainly men and found myself the only female on my team, I did what I was
used of...joined the team in the change room. WELL what an experience!!!
There were only a couple of men that have played hockey with women before
and were used of us changing with them. The rest didn't know what to do,
everything from being ultra ultra conservative to complete exhibitionists.
There were 6 teams and 1 women on each. Each women made up their minds on
where she would change, all for different reasons. In turned out that 3 of
us changed with the men and the other 3 changed in the designated women's
change room. Well, unfortunately only 1 women lasted the entire week in
the change room with the men. Myself and 1 other women lasted until
mid-week and then jumped ship and left our *teams* change room. I could
not believe how much of an issue this became. Of all the new and exciting
things going on in the hockey camp, THIS was the main topic of conversation
for days. In fairness to my teammates, they really didn't know how to
react. After it is was discussed over drinks after several of the ice time,
I seemed to have gotten my motives/point across and everyone agreed that I
was part of the team and should change with the team. The men relaxed on
the most part and respected me for having the courage to go into this
testosterone charge change room and really did welcome me there...EXCEPT
for one IDIOT!! This goofball seemed to have felt that I was in their
*mens* change room, not the *teams* change rooms and felt compelled to give
me a taste of men at their worst. "Buddy" pranced around naked
continually, and talked trash about women. To be honest it was
uncomfortable, I kept my eyes down, changed quickly and tried to ignore his
sexist/demeaning remarks about women. Finally on day four, the night after
the annual night out to the "ballet" (strip club), I had enough. The idiot
gave very specific details about the strip club using every vulgar word he
could think of to describe women and their body parts. I totally felt
trapped between a rock and a hard place. On behalf on all women, I could
not sit there and listen to his bullshit but on the other hand, I really
did feel like I couldn't say anything because I was supposed to be one of
the guys. So after the practice, I grabbed my hockey bag and got unchanged
in the women's change room and continued to change there from then on..
Did I do the right thing?? Should I have chewed the guy out on behalf of
all women?? and/or should I have stuck it out? I am still not absolutely,
completely sure. To me the whole point of me being in there was to feel
part of the team and to have fun, once that was removed by my
uncomfortableness, I felt no longer a need to be there. Virtually every
single man on my team came up to me and apologized for the idiot's
behaviour. They were all truly ashamed of him and told me that they were
ready to turf him out of the change room if I would come back. For me
there was no going back, I made my decision and I was going to stick with
it. I thanked them anyways.
I did not feel that reading this guy the "riot act" (as our captain wanted
to do) would constructively change anything. In fact, it would just
re-enforce his disdain towards women. It may have given me a moment of
short term satisfaction but I tell you the real satisfaction came when this
guy lost the respect of our teammates despite that he happened to be our
best player. Not only that, but as the week finished off, he began to see
me as a *real* hockey player, not just "pretty good for a girl". And once
I came second only to him in scoring, he swallowed his pride at our banquet
and in front of the team, sincerely praised my hockey ability as a *hockey
player* !!
I think that in a very, small way, I have slightly reduced his disdain for
women instead of reinforcing it.
So I guess that if I was to find some sort of lesson from my experience it
could be that although we as women hockey players have come along way,
there really is a long way to go. Or perhaps this is more about attitudes
towards women in general, not just women hockey players. I was stunned by
this *lawyer's* lack of respect and complete disdain for women. I can
tell you this, although I am no means naive and routinely hang out with men
as 'one of the guys', when it comes right down to it I am not 'one of the
guys'...what I am is a strong, independent women who is proud of her
womanhood.
One final note, I have to admit however, that I did give in to my
vindictive side once he left the banquet as the rest of my team and I had
an unofficial team picture circled around holding up his 'burning
jersey'..So long #7!!!
Hehhehe.... hey nobodies perfect ;)
Kristen
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:22:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Maura Grogan
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Off Ice Insurance
Message-ID:
The clinic is going to be held in San Diego (end of September), and several
of us women players are working with a local rink to put it together. It
will be open only to intermediate/advanced skaters. If anyone's
interested, please email me at email@hidden. Thanks.
At 12:42 PM 8/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Where is the clinic going to be held? And who is running it? Also, is it open
>to anyone who wants to attend?
>
>Thanks,
>Kellie # 30
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 16:50:59 -0400
From: "Joanna L. Avery"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Change Room Dynamics.. -Reply
Message-ID:
It's too bad the your teammates didn't put the guy in his place, not
because they were protecting you as a woman, but because they
respected you as a hockey player. Would they take that crap if the guy
was talking about one of the other *guy* players? If they were so
embarrassed about his behavior, they should have said something to
him.
I applaud you for not wanting to be 'one of the guys'. We should be
proud to be women and not feel as though we have to give in to being
one of the guys in order to play on a team and feel as though we are
part of that team.
>>> "Kristen M. Ede" 08/07/97 04:17pm >>>
Hey all,
Just thought that I would share my experiences regarding the thread
about
changing with the men. (sorry about the length..I initially intended to be
brief..)
Typically I have had nothing but positive experiences co-habitating with
the men in the locker rooms. I completely agree that the change room
dynamics support team building and build camaraderie. Although I am
generally quite private (even with the women), I really feel left out
changing by myself in another change room. I too, wear a T-shirt and
shorts under my equipment (and change those in private) and I have
made an
absolute art of keeping my eyes down (i.e. tying and re-tying laces etc..)
in uncomfortable situations ( yes there IS always one in every group)
So, when I recently went to a hockey camp in the Toronto area that was
mainly men and found myself the only female on my team, I did what I
was
used of...joined the team in the change room. WELL what an
experience!!!
There were only a couple of men that have played hockey with women
before
and were used of us changing with them. The rest didn't know what to
do,
everything from being ultra ultra conservative to complete exhibitionists.
There were 6 teams and 1 women on each. Each women made up their
minds on
where she would change, all for different reasons. In turned out that 3
of
us changed with the men and the other 3 changed in the designated
women's
change room. Well, unfortunately only 1 women lasted the entire week
in
the change room with the men. Myself and 1 other women lasted until
mid-week and then jumped ship and left our *teams* change room. I
could
not believe how much of an issue this became. Of all the new and
exciting
things going on in the hockey camp, THIS was the main topic of
conversation
for days. In fairness to my teammates, they really didn't know how to
react. After it is was discussed over drinks after several of the ice time,
I seemed to have gotten my motives/point across and everyone agreed
that I
was part of the team and should change with the team. The men relaxed
on
the most part and respected me for having the courage to go into this
testosterone charge change room and really did welcome me
there...EXCEPT
for one IDIOT!! This goofball seemed to have felt that I was in their
*mens* change room, not the *teams* change rooms and felt compelled to
give
me a taste of men at their worst. "Buddy" pranced around naked
continually, and talked trash about women. To be honest it was
uncomfortable, I kept my eyes down, changed quickly and tried to ignore
his
sexist/demeaning remarks about women. Finally on day four, the night
after
the annual night out to the "ballet" (strip club), I had enough. The idiot
gave very specific details about the strip club using every vulgar word
he
could think of to describe women and their body parts. I totally felt
trapped between a rock and a hard place. On behalf on all women, I
could
not sit there and listen to his bullshit but on the other hand, I really
did feel like I couldn't say anything because I was supposed to be one of
the guys. So after the practice, I grabbed my hockey bag and got
unchanged
in the women's change room and continued to change there from then
on..
Did I do the right thing?? Should I have chewed the guy out on behalf of
all women?? and/or should I have stuck it out? I am still not absolutely,
completely sure. To me the whole point of me being in there was to feel
part of the team and to have fun, once that was removed by my
uncomfortableness, I felt no longer a need to be there. Virtually every
single man on my team came up to me and apologized for the idiot's
behaviour. They were all truly ashamed of him and told me that they
were
ready to turf him out of the change room if I would come back. For me
there was no going back, I made my decision and I was going to stick
with
it. I thanked them anyways.
I did not feel that reading this guy the "riot act" (as our captain wanted
to do) would constructively change anything. In fact, it would just
re-enforce his disdain towards women. It may have given me a moment
of
short term satisfaction but I tell you the real satisfaction came when this
guy lost the respect of our teammates despite that he happened to be
our
best player. Not only that, but as the week finished off, he began to see
me as a *real* hockey player, not just "pretty good for a girl". And once
I came second only to him in scoring, he swallowed his pride at our
banquet
and in front of the team, sincerely praised my hockey ability as a *hockey
player* !!
I think that in a very, small way, I have slightly reduced his disdain for
women instead of reinforcing it.
So I guess that if I was to find some sort of lesson from my experience it
could be that although we as women hockey players have come along
way,
there really is a long way to go. Or perhaps this is more about attitudes
towards women in general, not just women hockey players. I was
stunned by
this *lawyer's* lack of respect and complete disdain for women. I can
tell you this, although I am no means naive and routinely hang out with
men
as 'one of the guys', when it comes right down to it I am not 'one of the
guys'...what I am is a strong, independent women who is proud of her
womanhood.
One final note, I have to admit however, that I did give in to my
vindictive side once he left the banquet as the rest of my team and I had
an unofficial team picture circled around holding up his 'burning
jersey'..So long #7!!!
Hehhehe.... hey nobodies perfect ;)
Kristen
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:57:06 -0400
From: Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Change Room Dynamics..
Message-ID:
Kristen,
I think I dated that jerk once. You are right, actions speak louder than
words with that kind of jerk. Congratulations.
Debbie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:11:21 -0700
From: "Phil & Debbie Cottrell"
To:
Subject: Re: Change Room Dynamics..
Message-ID:
Hi Kristen,
> Did I do the right thing?? Should I have chewed the guy out on behalf of
> all women?? and/or should I have stuck it out? I am still not
absolutely,
> completely sure.
Don't worry about whether or not you did the right thing...You did what you
had to do which makes it the right thing. I wonder why none of the men in
that room did anything about his behavior though? Their silence is almost
as bad as his behavior...
I play with men as well. Each person in that room (usually 20 - 22 men in
total ranging from beginners to men who have made it to the major junior
level and myself and one other woman) changes into his or her gear, jokes
around, holds down a conversation, and gets to the ice without insulting
any other team mate in that room. We women get ribbed in there just like
the men...but it's always about hockey, it's always in a positive light,
and it's always done in good spirit. I'm beginning to realize just how
lucky I am to be playing with the guys I do.
Don't let this one experience leave you in a seperate change room for life.
Most of the guys you find out there (like the ones I play with) are going
to welcome you onto their team...
Debbie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 23:54:22 -0400
From: Louise
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Change Room Dynamics..
Message-ID:
Kristen Ede wrote:
>So, when I recently went to a hockey camp in the Toronto area that was
>mainly men and found myself the only female on my team, I did what I was
>used of...joined the team in the change room.
>Did I do the right thing?? Should I have chewed the guy out on behalf of
>all women?? and/or should I have stuck it out? [...] Virtually every
>single man on my team came up to me and apologized for the idiot's
>behaviour. They were all truly ashamed of him and told me that they were
>ready to turf him out of the change room if I would come back.
>I did not feel that reading this guy the "riot act" (as our captain wanted
>to do) would constructively change anything. In fact, it would just
>re-enforce his disdain towards women.
I think you did the right things (discussed the matters with your more
rational team-mates, left when the one guy got impossibly offensive), but
I'm wondering about the camp management. Did you pay to attend this camp?
Did you let the organizers know what was going on? If not, I hope you will
write them a letter, or meet with them, or something. If they are willing
to take women's money (and especially if they *advertise* that women are
welcome), they should make more effort to make the camp a positive
experience for the women. One easy solution is to assign the women two or
three to a team, (even if some of the other teams end up all men - those
teams could have more male beginners) rather than put one woman on each
team.
Did you mean that your captain wanted *you* to "read the riot act", or that
he was prepared to do it? If he was prepared to do it himself, I think I
wouldn't have tried to stop him. (Like it or not, sexist assholes are more
likely to listen to another man ....)
Louise
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:46:55 -0700
From: Chuq Von Rospach
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Change Room Dynamics..
Message-ID:
At 1:17 PM -0700 8/7/97, Kristen M. Ede wrote:
"Buddy" pranced around naked
>continually, and talked trash about women. To be honest it was
>uncomfortable, I kept my eyes down, changed quickly and tried to ignore his
>sexist/demeaning remarks about women.
It's a lot more effective to point and giggle. A quick "you're proud of
THAT?" or "is that all?" can really put things in perspective...
>I did not feel that reading this guy the "riot act" (as our captain wanted
>to do) would constructively change anything.
Probably not, but he was pulling a power play on you, in the worst way.
I won't go say as to say harrassment, but it's awful close. But typical
locker room antics can both get the point across and defuse the
situation... If that doesn't work, suggest to him next time he tries
it, you'll cup check him across the room.
This is a place where some well-timed "being one of the boys" might not
hurt, and really help you with the rest of the teammates.
Unfortunately, this kind of pecking order stuff is common in men's
dressing room (they don't save it for women, they save it for anyone
they think they can get away with it...), but there are ways of
defusing or turning it back without overt actions. (there was this time
I had a disagreement with the starting offensive line of the high
school football team. And since I took care of their equipment for them
(I was never stupid enough to PLAY football....), one day, during a
heat wave, all of the shoulder pads magically got coated with heat
balm. Of course, they didn't notice until midway through the practice
when they sweated through their T-shirts... Needless, we came to an
accomodation after that...)
Try taking the sex aspects out of it and look at it purely as a turfing
issue -- dominance fights and pecking order. And that might give some
ideas on dealing with it.
Some days my gender's worst really pisses me off....
chuq
--
Chuq Von Rospach (email@hidden) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome
Plaidworks Consulting (email@hidden)
( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 01:46:51 -0500
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Change Room Dynamics..
Message-ID:
Just for the record...
I play with a great bunch of guys also... and not just the ones on my
team. With the exception of one or two, most of the guys in my league
are extremely supportive of me playing with them.
I'm not sure if any of them suscribe to the women-in-hockey list, but if
they do, THANKS GUYS!!
Joey
------------------------------
Date: 08 Aug 97 01:04:30 PDT (Fri)
From: Chuck Collins
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Change Room Dynamics..
Message-ID:
A point of information... might be relevant, might not...
I saw the San Jose Rhinos play the Sacramento River Rats, and I noticed that
Manon Rheaume dressed in a separate room.
However, when Erin Whitten played with the Oakland Skates, she used the
team locker room. Not that she played that much...
- Chuck Collins
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 97 09:36:31 -0400
From: email@hidden (Jules Smith)
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Change Room Dynamics..
Message-ID: <9708081336.AA01706@pinion>
>Did I do the right thing?? Should I have chewed the guy out on behalf of
>all women?? and/or should I have stuck it out? I am still not absolutely,
>completely sure. To me the whole point of me being in there was to feel
>part of the team and to have fun, once that was removed by my
>uncomfortableness, I felt no longer a need to be there.
Sounds to me like you did the right thing for *you* in that situation. It's
unfortunate that you were made to feel uncomfortable by that idiot; although
it sounds like some of the other guys were, too. So, not only did they not
"speak
up for you" - they didn't speak up for themselves.
> the real satisfaction came when this guy lost the respect of our teammates
despite that he >happened to be our best player. Not only that, but as the
week finished off, he began to see
>me as a *real* hockey player, not just "pretty good for a girl". And once
>I came second only to him in scoring, he swallowed his pride at our banquet
>and in front of the team, sincerely praised my hockey ability as a *hockey
player* !!
That's the best kind of payoff in situations like that: his puerile antics
coming back to bite him
on the ass! Does "swallowing his pride" mean he in some way actually
apologized to you?
> Or perhaps this is more about attitudes
>towards women in general, not just women hockey players.
I would think it's more about attitudes toward women in general- otherwise,
the majority of male hockey players in the locker room would act that way.
My team is all guys, and I don't "consider" myself lucky that they know how to
act around me in the "team" locker room (I am, after all, their captain) I
EXPECT it.
I get too hot wearing shorts/t-shirt under my gear, but, I figure they
would see
more skin at the beach- so I just do it! I don't prance & preen, nor do I
"avert"
my eyes if I happen to look up and see someone's fifth appendage- I looked up
and there it was! Oh, well! ; )
Once or twice at a drop-in game or a clinic I attended with one or two other
teammates, we'd be in the locker room dressing and a guy would walk in, do a
double-take at me, start to leave, and I'd say, "You can stay, I don't care."
My teammates would say something funny like, "yeah, she knows all about
shrinkage",
and the guy'll laugh and change with us. So I think for the most part,
THEY'RE the
uncomfortable ones- maybe thinking,"oh, this woman must want to change alone-
I'll go to another room."
One of my teammates plays on a team in a different league, with all men, and he
tells me of a guy who actually brings porno mags into the locker room! Jim
tells me
this guy will sit there staring at the centerfold moaning, "Oh...yeah
Brandi, you got it all.."
and goes into explicit detail of all his "scores" and stuff like that. His
whole team feels uncomfortable around this guy and is trying to get rid of
him. So, Kristen-don't feel
disillusioned- maybe it wasn't exactly YOUR presence that riled this guy-
he's just a
natural born loser!
>One final note, I have to admit however, that I did give in to my
>vindictive side once he left the banquet as the rest of my team and I had
>an unofficial team picture circled around holding up his 'burning
>jersey'..So long #7!!!
I'd go one step further: send him a poster-sized enlargement of this picture!
Take care,
Jules #8
------------------------------
End of WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 654
*********************************