Parent
WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 541
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Re[2]: mud wrestling vs. checking
by email@hidden (DAVE BAKER)
2) Re: Re[4]: mud wrestling vs. checking
by email@hidden
3) Re: Re[6]: mud wrestling vs. checking
by email@hidden (DAVE BAKER)
4) Re: Checking vs. making a living
by Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
5) Checking and Skills
by "Hunter, Bill 464-8643"
6) Goalie Needed in Mass/Marlboro Spring League
by email@hidden
7) Virus Alert (fwd)
by Edward N Saunders
8) My 2-cents worth also
by email@hidden
9) Re[8]: mud wrestling vs. checking
by Jan de Regt
10) Re: Re[4]: mud wrestling vs. checking
by Susan Gottfried
11) Re: St Mary's Hockey Camp
by email@hidden
12) K-Wing travel hockey
by "Scott Perkins"
13) ice time in Denver
by email@hidden (Ta, Jacqueline)
14) Re: St Mary's Hockey Camp
by "David R. Strong"
15) Re: mud wrestling vs. checking
by email@hidden
16) Re: Body Checking
by email@hidden (Liam, Agnes & Daniel Coughlan)
17) Re: WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY digest 540
by "Greg Thompson"
18) Re: Virus Alert (fwd)
by email@hidden (Stormwind)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:26:16 +0000
From: email@hidden (DAVE BAKER)
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Re[2]: mud wrestling vs. checking
Message-ID:
> The original rules did allow checking. In the '90 WWC checking was
> allowed. IIHF changed the rule. Does anybody know why IIHF doesn't allow
> checking in women's hockey?
The rule to remove body checking in Women's Hockey was changed in
1986 at the IIHF level. There was no body checking permitted at the
1990 WWC. Was there body checking that occurred in that
championship? Absolutely. Was it supposed to be permitted? No.
David Baker
Manager, Officiating
CANADIAN HOCKEY
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Re[4]: mud wrestling vs. checking
Message-ID:
In a message dated 97-04-18 01:29:37 EDT, you write:
<< Which brings me to a favorite point: Pee Wee Football leagues in the US
base their competivie divisions on weight rather than age. As hockey grows,
it might be an effective idea as well.
- Chuck Collins >>
Funny you should mention that! Me and some male friends were just talking
about that last night at "Open Hockey". As a 4'11" 96 lb. female player , my
male friends are always joking with me and last night before my shift, they
were hollering, "come on Jackie, we want to see you do BIG THINGS with that
little body!" All in good fun. But here in Cincinnati I always look forward
to the summer when our rinks start having 15 and under "Open Hockey" and I am
the only Adult allowed to play. They let me play with those young boys
because of my size and what a DIFFERENCE it makes! And don't get me wrong,
the younger boys that I scrimmage with are excellent hockey players, but I
sure have the chance to dominate more than during my scrimmages with the
Adult males. I mean, one of my linemates on my "Men's League" team is 6'5"
260 lbs! I mean, he scares the beegeebies out of other men! My team mates
joke and say, "I would love to just spend on game in your body and see what
it must look like to you!" and I'm like, "Actually, games or life, it pretty
much looks the same, everyone is towering over me!" Even on the women's team
we just started here, my Mom came to one of our practices all excited about
me FINALLY getting to play with Gals and she said later, "Honey, you are
still really outsized with those gals!" Thanks Mom! I already realize that!
( :
Jackie - #22 - She Shooooooots, She Scoooooooores
Jackie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:16:30 +0000
From: email@hidden (DAVE BAKER)
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Re[6]: mud wrestling vs. checking
Message-ID:
> As you say, in the US checking begins (in most areas) at pee wee. I
> often hear the argument to begin checking at mite "like they do in
> Canada." When I was in Montreal this winter, I learned that the local
> city league there didn't begin checking until Bantam. Interesting,
> huh?
Nationally, checking is prohibited in Atom and below and in all
divisions of female hockey. However, many regions will extend the no
checking rule into higher age classifications at their discretion.
This is common in many house leagues.
David Baker
Manager, Officiating
CANADIAN HOCKEY
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:02:41 -0400
From: Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Checking vs. making a living
Message-ID:
>Somebody made the point early, and I haven't seen it since: There's one
>excellent reason against women's hockey including body checking and that's
>that we don't have any recourse to pay our bills should we suffer an injury
>that disables us or puts us out of work for a lengthy period. Any NHLer or
>minor league player has union support and contract clauses that protect them
>financially in the event of injuries. That's the best reason why checking is
>banned for almost all men's amateur levels and for all women's (inherently
>amateur, at this point) levels.
>
>Women players at the WWC repeatedly talked about how they had to give up
>salaries and even pay for the opportunities to try out for their national
>teams. How are they supposed to keep paying for their hockey, let alone their
>rent, if they get a Pat LaFontaine-esque concussion? It only takes one bad
>shot, or even a misfired attempt to hit someone else -- ask Travis Roy.
>
>Margaret
>Brooklyn Blades
If you are registered with USAHockey, then you carry excellent secondary
insurance that covers catastrophic hockey events. Not that any of us
should ever need it. Please keep your bodies to yourself, except
"incedentally'." I am pleased to see that respect and prevention are major
goals in USAHockey. As the mother of a girl on a boy's team, I hope they
are successful. It is amazing how many new words my kid has learned from
some of the boys who don't like their turf invaded. So even if checking is
a part of the game, at least maybe the malicious nature can be removed. If
checking were just another part of the game, and not the tool of goons who
are put on the ice exclusively to enforce and cause damage, then if might
not be so feared and so dangerous.
Debbie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:50:00 -0600
From: "Hunter, Bill 464-8643"
To: Women in Hockey
Subject: Checking and Skills
Message-ID:
Checking versus Non-Checking
I believe that Alberta is the only Canadian provincial hockey
association which allows body checking at the PeeWee Level. (Ages 12-13
our division names are not always the same....). The provincial
association recommends that all coaches take the NCCP Bodychecking
clinic. Our association in Sherwood Park has made it mandatory for all
Peewee coaches. This way checking is taught correctly and reduces the
potential for injury. (Due Diligence)
My oldest son is in first year Bantam (14,15 yrs old), he just made it
over 1000 lbs by the end of the season. He had his collarbone broken in
first year PeeWee from a check from behind. It was not a viscious check
in any way. Being small, he was fast for his skill level. He crossed
the blueline on the left side, went all the way over to the right side
to pick up the puck. The two players pursuing him carreid into him and I
think he had his right arm brace against the boards and the shock of the
hit carried up and snapped the collar bone.
This injury had nothing to do with bodychecking. I have seen this type
of contact at Tom Thumb (6,7) Novice (8,9) and Atom(10,11). It comes
from poor teaching of technique or improper coaching - no regard for the
safety of your opponent. I saw something very similar in the Canada
US(?) game that was called improperly by the referee so that no player
was ejected. I believe that bodychecking should be allowed relative to
skill levels rather than age. If you can't skate, you can't protect
your self from a hit. By the same token, highly skilled players can
position themselves properly to give or take body checks. Remembewr, in
Canda at least, body contact is allowed at all levels of hockey -within
the definitions of the rule, contact is not initiated by the forward
motion of the defender, two players going to the puck can make
incidental contact, the defender is allowed to close the boards off to
an opponent but not push or shove the opponent into the boards)
What I'm seeing in the discussion is that the level of checking is being
decided by the referee, not the coaches, players or governing bodies.
I coach a female Midget B team. We saw lots of physical play by our
opponents. Nothing got my players more riled up than to be physically
checked off the puck and no call was made. This resulted tempers
flaring and increased stickwork and physical play to the point whre
things often threatened to get out of hand. Couple of quotes from the
discussion - email@hidden "The worst example was this year
in Brampton. Any time anybody bumped into another player the ref called
a penalty. It didn't matter if you were bumped into or if you bumped
into someone else. I'm not talking about checking either, but incidental
contact." Mary Wood "Our team's experience at
Brampton was quite the opposite of yours, there was alot of physical and
body contact allowed during all of our games, much more so than we were
used to getting away with." The referee ends up deciding the outcome of
the game either by letting one team push the envelope or penalizing
them. Coaches and players can't properly prepare for that and that's
when things get out of hand. Checking videos won't help because a lot
of referees do both styles of games. The ones who work body checking
hockey tend to allow more contact than thoise who don't. A hundred
videos won't take the place of experience and if they get a lot of
their experience watching bodychecking.......
Ringette is in trouble at the older age levels. Girls are leaving the
sport in droves because of the non-checking rules. Penalties are called
inconsistently, usually the player left standing gets the penalty, not
the player who initiated contact. I understand that Ringette's response
it that they are holding a full contact tournament next year.
A second thing.....
I've seen a lot of comments about how checking deteriorates teaching and
learning hockey skills and promotes survival skills instead.
......Excuse me..... 1) Where did Haley Wickenheiser learn to play? I
understood she played hockey in the regular minor leagues. 2) Ringette
is a non-contact game. The last few years the local Ringette
Association has hosted a Ringette-Hockey Challenge to expose more girls
to the game. It consists of skill competetions boys with pucks and
girls with rings followed by a relay race. End of the sessions is a
ringette game featuring the Deb AA team vs the local provincial Junior A
hockey team. Hockey and ringette each provide the same number of
players at each age group. The hockey players come from all skill
levels within the program. I have had kids on both sides of the
competition. The hockey players have outskated the ringette players and
won the competition the last two years. (I asked politely if some of
our female hockey players could be included but I think there was some
sensitivity that the ringette association might not appreciate it. Next
year I'm going to insist....) 3) I have some personal experience. I used
to coach my wife's ringette team. I had the good fortune to play in a
couple of exhibiton games with Judy Diduck, one with, one against. (Very
nice person!) She's a great skater and I'm only average. No question,
she outskated me BUT I feel I've been outskated much worse by men
playing rec hockey.
If your association is not doing a good job of teaching skills, get
after them. Our association forbids players under 6 from playing
hockey. We offer an initiation program to kids age 5 to 9 where the
kids are taught skills in a fun atmosphere and don't see a puck until
near christmas. Our association expects all of our coaches to have taken
the initiation or coach level coaching certification from the NCCP (not
that I think it's the be all and end all but it's a good start).
Coaches are told to emphasize skill development. We offer powerskating
clinics, goaltender clinics and specialized coaching clinics. It all
works. The majority of my older boy's age group did not go through the
initiation program while the majority of my younger son's did. I
coached both boys at the same level of hockey within our program(Novice
C). We had to play much higher level teams outside our association with
my younger son's team because of the overall increase in skills.
Bill Hunter
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:25:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Goalie Needed in Mass/Marlboro Spring League
Message-ID:
Hi,
My women's ice hockey team needs a goalie.
Please, email or call 617-312-3069 for details.
Thank you,
email@hidden
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:40:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Edward N Saunders
To: email@hidden
Subject: Virus Alert (fwd)
Message-ID:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:56:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen H Hardy
To: Sport Studies Forum
Subject: Virus Alert (fwd)
Stephen Hardy
Professor and Coordinator phone: 603-862-2076
Sport Studies Program
303 New Hampshire Hall fax: 603-862-0154
University of New Hampshire
Durham, NH 0382 email: email@hidden
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:33:27 EDT
From: Peter J. Graham
To: email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden, email@hidden,
email@hidden
Subject: Virus Alert
Received the notice below from Dr. Gene Kaczka a good friend and
colleague at Clarkson University. I trust the virus incident is true and
you should pay close attentiion to the warning!
Cheers ... Peter
__________________
(Fwd) Virus Watch!
Note from one of my students.
Gene K
From Bruce Rutenberg
Subject: Virus Watch!
This is about a VERY bad virus we must all watch out for, I sent this
message to everyone in my address book.
I got this from someone:
Anyone who receives this must sent it to as many people as you can. It
is
essential that this problem be reconciled as soon as possible. A few
hours
ago, I opened an E-mail that had the subject heading of "AOL4FREE.COM".
Within seconds of opening it, a window appeared and began to display my
files that were being deleted. I immediately shut down my computer, but
it
was too late. This virus wiped me out. It ate the Anti-Virus Software
that
comes with the Windows '95 Program along with F-Prot AVS. Neither was
able
to detect it. Please be careful and send this to as many people as
possible, so maybe this new virus can be eliminated.
DON'T OPEN E-MAIL NOTING "AOL4FREE"
Bruce Rutenberg
Clarkson University MBA
email@hidden
___________________
Peter J. Graham, 213 Beaver Dam Rd, Columbia, SC 29223
Office: Home:
E-mail email@hidden E-mail Duffer11.Juno.com
Phone (803)777-4690 Phone (803) 736-2964
Fax (803)777-8788 Fax (803) 736-2964
(Advance notice required)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:48:05 -0600
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: My 2-cents worth also
Message-ID:
Some comments: Someone asked WHY the IIHF changed the check/no check
rule in 1990 at the World's. I was there and heard via USA Hockey
personnel they changed to only open ice checks when it was obvious
that the European teams couldn't hold a candle to the checking and
fast skating of Canada/USA/Finland.
Someone asked why "we" don't have checking because the rules are the
same for boys/girls/men/women's in other sports. They AREN'T! In
Basketball for instance, the women's ball is smaller! In
Softball...for the most part boys/men don't play softball (till they
get older) - they play BASEBALL! They forgot to mention Gymnastics -
they are DIFFERENT! I can't speak for soccer and swimming. For the
most part boys (at least here in the mid-west) don't play volleyball
(even though they want to!) in high school or college. Just
girls/women.
Also, one last parting remark on the checking issue. I heard from
some one from USA Hockey (insurance) that the BOYS game will be
NON-CHECKING in time because of the injuries and the incidence of
catastrophic injuries! So digest that one for awhile!
Have a good weekend...Dorene
------------------------------
Date: 18 Apr 1997 14:46:07 -0400
From: Jan de Regt
To: email@hidden (Return requested),
Subject: Re[8]: mud wrestling vs. checking
This was BOY'S hockey!
Jan.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[6]: mud wrestling vs. checking
Author: email@hidden at Internet
Date: 4/18/97 2:19 PM
> As you say, in the US checking begins (in most areas) at pee wee. I
> often hear the argument to begin checking at mite "like they do in
> Canada." When I was in Montreal this winter, I learned that the local
> city league there didn't begin checking until Bantam. Interesting,
> huh?
Nationally, checking is prohibited in Atom and below and in all
divisions of female hockey. However, many regions will extend the no
checking rule into higher age classifications at their discretion.
This is common in many house leagues.
David Baker
Manager, Officiating
CANADIAN HOCKEY
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:05:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Susan Gottfried
To: email@hidden
Cc: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: Re[4]: mud wrestling vs. checking
Message-ID:
Sorry, when it comes to weight divisions, I have to throw my 2c in here:
I'm only five feet tall. I weight, on a good day, around 110, without my
gear on. I'm also 28.
For me to play with women of my own weight, I'd far outweigh them in
maturity -- in fact, I'm the smallest of the team I *coach* and they're
college students!
I'm not bothered by playing with bigger people, so long as it's an
incidental-contact game (as in, no check, but use your body). For me, to
introduce checking would be disastrous! Imagine someone checking me-- I'd
fly over the glass and into the stands!
(that said, I have survived checks, but usually against people who I know
and who know. The familiarity issue becomes important here -- when
someone knows you, they have a better idea of how small you are and where
to hit)
I like the no-check game. I don't worry about getting hurt; instead, I
can concentrate on getting around the big lug in front of me!
No checks, no weight divisions, or I'm playing with 8-year-olds, and
what's the fun in that?
Susan
Susan Helene Gottfried
Assistant Coach, Chatham College Club Hockey
Author of the Erroll Weiss Hockey novels (pub. pending)
and out in the 'burbs of Mr. Roger's Neighborhood
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:34:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: St Mary's Hockey Camp
Message-ID:
I'm not sure how competitive it is but I know two of the couselors who run it
and they've said kids had a blast. From the enrollment, the girl's are split
into equal teams for the week. Everyone scrimages everyone and a lot of time
is focused on refining basic skills.
I'm not sure if you're from the metropolitan area of Minneapolis but if you
are then I recommend the All-Star Hockey Program for your daughter, through
Acceleration Minnesota. It's a six-week program during the summer that will
really get you into shape for the season. They have a hockey "treadmill"
made of fake ice you skate on indoors. Plus you have on-ice and plyometrics.
I believe you also automatically receive a membership to Northwest Health
Club during the program. BUT, it does cost $500. I personally think it's
worth it. I've never been in better shape after using the treadmill and it
helped out my season a great deal!
-Kelly O'Neil #18
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:49:05 -0400
From: "Scott Perkins"
To: "Subscribers to"
Subject: K-Wing travel hockey
Message-ID:
To all prospective players,
The K-Wings(Keweenaw)are a women's midget travel team based out of
Houghton, MI, in the Upper Peninsula. The K-Wings play local women's and
boys' teams, and travel to play teams out of the area. The team also
attends a good number of tournaments throughout the season. This year the
team included girls ages 12-18 from many different areas, including girls
attending Michigan Tech University in Houghton. If you will be/are
classified as a midget(19 and under),and are interested in trying out for
the K-Wings, you can contact Shannon Perkins at email@hidden , or
visit the K-Wings' official homepage at
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/4576/ , for more information and
contact numbers/e-mail addresses.
Thanks,
Shannon Perkins-#1 K-Wings
email@hidden
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/4576/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 13:53:00 MDT
From: email@hidden (Ta, Jacqueline)
To: "'email@hidden'"
Subject: ice time in Denver
Message-ID:
Hi everyone!
Not to distract from the discussion on checking...
But I just wanted to get out the news that there will be a women's
drop-in hockey session every Wednesday from 6:30-8pm beginning May 14.
These sessions are initially slated to last for eight weeks, but if we
have a good turnout, the rink manager says that he will keep the sessions
going. This is a great opportunity for all of those out there (like me)
who've wanted to get better at hockey but can't get ice time because you
are too old for the kid's leagues. The rink is Foothills Ice Arena in
Lakewood.
Also, for those of you who are interested in roller hockey, the Bladium
(303-320-3033) in Aurora has women's skill clinics on Sunday afternoons.
They also have co-ed leagues. Roller hockey is a great way to get your
hockey kick when the ice season is over and you can't get ice time
anywhere. For example, you can get drop-in hockey at the Bladium most
nights each week, but I haven't yet been able to get to a drop-in ice
hockey session since it is usually during the day when I work. (As a
sidenote, the Bladium has rinks with real boards and everything).
Hockey is alive and well in Denver! Though I must say, it would be SO
nice if they could build a few more rinks so that we could play more.
Also, it would be great if we could get more consistent refs (we've had
refs that looked no older than 12 at our games!).
--Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:07:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Strong"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: St Mary's Hockey Camp
Message-ID:
> I'm not sure if you're from the metropolitan area of Minneapolis but if you
> are then I recommend the All-Star Hockey Program for your daughter, through
> Acceleration Minnesota. It's a six-week program during the summer that will
> really get you into shape for the season. They have a hockey "treadmill"
> made of fake ice you skate on indoors. Plus you have on-ice and plyometrics.
> I believe you also automatically receive a membership to Northwest Health
> Club during the program. BUT, it does cost $500. I personally think it's
> worth it. I've never been in better shape after using the treadmill and it
> helped out my season a great deal!
This sounds like a good program, but we're in Upper Michigan and 350 miles
from Minneapolis. Will probably do hockey camps at Mt. Clemens, MI
(Rinksport), Houghton, MI (Michigan Tech boys - 4 miles away),
and St. Mary's. Thanks for the response.
Dave Strong
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:11:45 -0500
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: mud wrestling vs. checking
Message-ID:
The 1st game had 11 penalties. The 2nd game had 14 penalties. Sorry but
I've lost the score sheet for the 3rd game, but I assure you it was the
same. The championship game had 15 penalties called. These weren't
chippy games, either. Mind you these are 30 minute games with 2 minute
minors. This isn't hockey. This isn't what people wnat to see or play.
The calls weren't one sided either. The Brampton tournament and the
competition is and has been outstanding in every way but one. The
referees call every bit of incidental contact. This reduces the games to
special teams play only. We heard this complaint from other teams at
many different age levels. I stand firm in my belief that the no
checking rule is the cause of this. Referees are not making the right
calls. Let them check and you will eliminate a lot of penalty calling.
In games we have played where the refs allowed most contact the games
were superior in the intensity and play. The game wasn't constanly
stopped for penalties and there was more of a flow and the individual
players responded. Positively. Well conditioned athletes with proper
protective equipment should be allowed to play hockey, a contact sport,
without having to hold back from physical contact.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:38:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: email@hidden (Liam, Agnes & Daniel Coughlan)
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Body Checking
Message-ID:
>
>> You make a good point, why should we change the rules just because that's the
>> way the men play the game. I agree. I just wonder why the original (?) rules
>> for women did not allow checking. Men played the game first, then women
>> played and they changed the rules, right? I could be wrong.
>
>Just for clarification, body checking was removed from the women's
>game in 1986 at the international level, and most federations
>followed suit.
>
>
>David Baker
>Manager, Officiating
>CANADIAN HOCKEY
>
>
Was not the 1990 World Championships full contact?
Liam
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:48:08 -0700
From: "Greg Thompson"
To:
Subject: Re: WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY digest 540
Message-ID:
Take me off of this mailing list now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:42:10 -0700
From: email@hidden (Stormwind)
To: Subscribers to ,
Subject: Re: Virus Alert (fwd)
Message-ID:
#1. This is a list about women in hockey, not
computer viruses.
#2. Anyone not using a PC is immediately exempt
from PC-targetting viruses. They won't do a thing
to a Unix box, for example.
#3. There are a whole rash of bogus virus alerts
running around with different titles, all purporting
to be email viruses that will do bad things. The
majority of them are blatantly false. Please do
not propogate these types of warnings without checking
to ensure the validity of the claims first.
stormwind
hell's amazon
lord of the frozen realm
------------------------------
End of WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 541
*********************************