Parent
WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 538
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Cammi Granato
by email@hidden
2) Re: Nationals -Reply -Reply
by "Joanna L. Avery"
3) Re: Nike skates
by bert
4) RE: women in the NHL
by zharris
5) Re: Cammi Granato
by Anne Paulson
6) RE: women in the NHL
by "Ashmun, Julia D"
7) Hockey League in Elmer, Quebec?
by "Kristen M. Ede"
8) Re: San Jose area hockey?
by email@hidden
9) Re: women in the NHL
by email@hidden
10) Re: women in the NHL
by Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
11) Re: Fees for goalies
by Lea and Robert Sanford
12) Re: hockey video
by email@hidden (DAVE BAKER)
13) Penalizing checking in no-check hockey.
by "Joseph P. Mercadante"
14) Re: Cammi Granato
by email@hidden
15) basketball
by email@hidden
16) Re: USA Nationals - Elmer Layton's results
by email@hidden
17) Re: Cammi Granato
by Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
18) Re: USA Nationals - Elmer Layton's results
by email@hidden
19) Re: Nationals -Reply
by email@hidden
20) Re: Nationals -Reply
by "Elmer A. Laydon"
21) Goons
by email@hidden
22) Re[2]: Fees for goalies
by Jan de Regt
23) St Mary's Hockey Camp
by "David R. Strong"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:09:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Cammi Granato
Message-ID:
I have read with interest all the comments about women's and men's hockey and
Cammi Granato. First women's hockey is not men's hockey and it shouldn't be.
I have watched a number of high caliber women's games, including ECAC
championships, national championships and elite developmental teams and they
all have the same thing in common, women's hockey for what it is is
excellent.
However, what it is not is a physically punishing, pulling, pushing, punching
exhibition of testosterone.
If you watch women's NCAA basketball the game is not the same as the men's
game but has its own beauty. They can't dunk or slam and their moves are not
as fluid but they have the desire and skill to make the game interesting.
Its good to see women exhibit the excitement and exhuberation of
competition.
Why do we need to make things into what they are not. Take out the
fighting from men's hockey and you might require players to have more skill.
Personally, I think all the fighting is a plot by the networks to be able to
sell more commerical time. When was the last time you saw somebody really get
the crap knocked out of themselves in a hockey fight.
I think on the whole women hockey players exhibit more overall skill than
do their counterparts in basketball. The sport is growing and as it does so
will the abilities of the athletes. Too many of the older women are the
products of the men's game and that is why you don't see the skill. Watch
the younger players coming up and you will be surprised at the skating,
passing and shooting ability these women possess.
As for Cammi, she is a great player, but she is not the fastest player,
the best skeater or the best shot. Her major skill is how smart a player she
is and how she makes you pay if you make a mistake. The tryout was designed
to be a stunt and she was smart enough to know not to bite. If you have ever
played against a former professional player or been on the ice with one, you
would appreciate the elite skill level even the worst player possesses.
Women' s hockey is not at that level yet.
Sherwin Zaban
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:06:33 -0400
From: "Joanna L. Avery"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Nationals -Reply -Reply
Message-ID:
They were called the Challengers
>>> Alicia L Roberts 04/15/97 11:53am >>>
Was the Michigan team the Metro Flyers or Team USA (Team Michigan)?
Alicia Roberts
UNH Wildcats #31
On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Joanna L. Avery wrote:
> Senior A - Team Southeast
> Senior B - Springfield (MA) She Devils
> PeeWee - CT Polar Bears
> Midget - CT Polar Bears
> Squirt (Exhibition) - Michigan Challengers (I think they were from
> Michigan!)
>
> >>> "Deathe, Barbara - DC" 04/15/97
11:09am
> >>>
>
> Anyone know the final results of the Nationals for all the divisions?
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:29:56 -0500 (cdt)
From: bert
To: Subscribers to
Subject: Re: Nike skates
Message-ID:
Are they available in Europe (ice or inline) ?????
On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Laura Halldorson wrote:
> Has anyone skated in the new Nike skates?
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 09:35:00 -0700
From: zharris
To: email@hidden, email@hidden (subscribers to)
Subject: RE: women in the NHL
Message-ID:
Before I make my point I must say I totally agree with Jan's and Dave
Strong's points:
Dave's
> success should not hinge on "making it" to the National League.
>The women's olympic basketball team (called the REAL DREAM TEAM by many)
>had a fantastic year in '96, yet none were drafted by the NBA. Does
anyone >think less of them?
>Do we look down on Monica Seles or Steffi Graf because they aren't beating
the top men in tennis?
>The ultimate goal for women's hockey should involve expansion and
>acceptance
>of their sport, not playing in the NHL.
And,
>Regarding weight training, I think anyone who looked into it would find
>that most of the top teams and players already have a solid conditioning
>program that includes weight training.
This is true even on the youth level (midget) where I am from.... I don't
think it is a matter of the correct training program... it has to do with
physical body types....
And Jan' comments:
>The average man is stronger than the average woman.
So my point?
I think we should look to "making it" in our own right... like the Pro
Women's Basketball league. Talk about "making it!" Who needs the NHL?!!?
Personally, I have no desire to play in the NHL. It would mean more to me
to make it in a women's Pro league. Why, because I enjoy the physical,
aggressive, clean style of women's ice hockey. I don't like the checking
style of men's hockey but I like the aggressive style of women's hockey.
Not to get off the point on what style I like, I just think that I am going
to put my energies into promoting the growth of women's hockey... not
women-in-men's-hockey. The time will come....
-Zoe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:47:29 -0700
From: Anne Paulson
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Cammi Granato
Message-ID:
> I can't think
> of any reason for a girl who was fast enough to keep up with a boys' team
> when she's seventeen to suddenly slow down when she's twenty, yet that's
> exactly what seems to happen.
A girl has pretty much stopped growing when she hits eighteen. A boy
doesn't stop until he's around 21, and he is putting on muscle all that
time. So the boys could be continuing to get faster. Also, collegiate
hockey teams (and certainly minor pro teams) are a lot pickier, and
therefore faster, than high school teams.
> Women can skate almost as fast as men (look at
> Bonnie Blair)
Ten percent slower, about, right?
> I know this isn't going to be popular, and I may be wrong (I *hope* I'm
> wrong), but it sure looked like the teams were being told to play only as
> quickly as the slowest girls on the roster.
Maybe they just end up playing only as quickly as their slower teammates,
because they end up more successful that way?
-- Anne Paulson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:54:33 -0400
From: "Ashmun, Julia D"
To: "'email@hidden'"
Subject: RE: women in the NHL
Message-ID:
Women do not need to take muscle enhancing drugs to be strong and that
type of insinuation, which I hear often, is discriminating and insulting
to women who are built big and strong. There are a number of female
hockey players who are 5'10, 6, 6.1" and even 6.2' that range from
172lbs to 195lbs (bigger than a number of famous NHL players) not to
mention volley ball and basket ball. I agree that women need to do more
upper body building to play men's [checking] hockey on the high school,
college (div III) or AHL level. I know of at least one female
practicing with a men's div III college team and is considering playing
Div. III men's hockey next year.
Julia
> ----------
> From: email@hidden[SMTP:email@hidden]
> Reply To: email@hidden
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 1997 11:32 AM
> To: Subscribers to
> Subject: Re: women in the NHL
>
> As I've said before, men are genetically bigger and more muscular than
> women.
> If a woman wants to be as big and strong as a man, she would have to
> be
> genetically built for it (like 6 feet ) and take muscle enhancing
> drugs, most
> probably.
> Julie
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:55:33 -0400
From: "Kristen M. Ede"
To:
Subject: Hockey League in Elmer, Quebec?
Message-ID:
Hey All,
My Centreman in moving to the Ottawa area, and has just purchased a home in
Elmer, Quebec and is looking for a hockey team to play on next season.
She is an A or B level Player (depending on where you are playing), has won
the fastest skater in our league (Thunder Bay) at a recent skills
competition, 2nd highest scorer on our team and has also won Most
Sportmanlike of the league 2 years ago.
She (and her husband) are alot of fun and she would definitely be an asset
to any team. She is looking for a competitive team of women that are also
fun off the ice as well.
If anyone has any contacts for a team or a league in that area, a private
email to me would be appreciated and I will pass on the information to her.
Thanks
Kristen
Thunder Bay Blades
email@hidden
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:02:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: San Jose area hockey?
Message-ID:
You should contact the San Jose Ice Centre. They have many hockey related
events going on. I know that Rinksport will be holding a senior women's
clinic there in July.
Hope this helps.
Bridget
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:10:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: women in the NHL
Message-ID:
But how could a woman stand a chance, regardless on conditioning, against a
goon like Claude Lemieux or a Joey Kocur?
Jackie
#29, Lady Blues
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:22:19 -0400
From: Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: women in the NHL
Message-ID:
> This discussion is butting heads with phyisology. I am sure this will
> be an emensely unpopular comment, but here goes.
>
> The average man is stronger than the average woman, and a highly
> trained professional male athelete is stronger than a highly trained
> professional female athelete. This is not to say there are not a few
> exceptions out there, of course. Look at world records in speed and
> weight between men and women. You don't think those women have been
> taught proper weight training?
Oops. The well trained female athlete is as strong pound for pound as a
well trained male athlete. The trouble is, the average man is bigger than
the average female. If you trained a male jockey the way you trained a
5'6" female hockey player, she would beat the male jockey every time. Two
5'6" athletes, male and female, same ability and trained the same way
should theoretically be in a dead heat. So, size does have a lot of
bearing, but not gender.
Debbie
>
> Jan.
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>Subject: women in the NHL
>Author: email@hidden at Internet
>Date: 4/15/97 8:42 AM
>
>
> Dear Fellow Readers,
> Since women are usually smaller than men, why don't the high
>school and college teams show women how to weight train correctly, so
>that when the day comes when women are in the NHL(hopefully soon) they
>will not feel over powered?
> Sherri Singer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:28:36 -0500
From: Lea and Robert Sanford
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Fees for goalies
Message-ID:
SYRILYN TONG wrote:
>
> As a goalie, I know that I've received special fees for
> many leagues that I've played in, but not all leagues. I
> believe the rationale is if goalies are hard to come by,
> you can entice them into playing by cutting (or in some
> cases waiving) their fees. So your decision may actually
> change as your league evolves and more goalies become
> available and desire to play in your league (I'm assuming
> there are not many now!)
How would you feel if, after 2 seasons, the subsidy was lifted and you
were suddenly paying twice what you were before? I worry that we would
suddenly lose our goalies.
Thanks for the comment....
Lea
#2 - Houston Harpies
--
email@hidden
*******************
"Forget conventionalisms; forget what the world will say, whether you
are in your place or out of your place; think your best thoughts, speak
your best words, do your best works, looking [only] to you own
conscience for approval."
--Susan B. Anthony, 1863
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:18:24 +0000
From: email@hidden (DAVE BAKER)
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: hockey video
Message-ID:
> David:
> Your name keeps coming up reference this video: "Body
> contact - the right call", and I have been referred to you
> by Jaime McDonald. Can you find this video for me? Is it
> a good video for refs to use for the woman's game? Please
> e-mail me at email@hidden. Many thanks-
> Syrilyn Tong
>
To everyone who is interested in this video:
It was created by Canadian Hockey for the International Ice Hockey
Federation to describe and display the differences between body
checking and body contact in female hockey. It is well done and we
actually introduced it in our Level I and II Officiating Clinics as
it also applies to the no body checking rule in divisions of Atom and
below on the male side of the game.
If you are interested in obtaining a copy of this video, contact the
Breakway Store, the official store of Canadian Hockey, at
1-800-667-2242 or (613) 748-5613 ext. 2300, and request stock
number 55129 - "Body Contact...The Right Call" video. The cost
is $20.00 (cdn.).
Hope this helps.
David Baker
Manager, Officiating
CANADIAN HOCKEY
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:51:36 -0400
From: "Joseph P. Mercadante"
To: "'email@hidden'"
Subject: Penalizing checking in no-check hockey.
Message-ID:
An interesting interpretations issue came up at the USA Hockey Girls'/Women's Nationals. In the USA Hockey Rules, body checking in no-check hockey is covered under the rule for Unnecessary Roughness (Roughing).
It is widely accepted that the roughing signal (punching motion to the side) is used to signal a penalty for body checking. The questions that did not have a clear cut answer are these:
How should a penalty for body checking in a no-check game be reported by the referee, be recorded on the official score sheet, and be announced to the spectators?
These questions have been added to the agenda of the next USA Hockey rules committee meeting. We, the on-site supervisors at the Nationals, had different thoughts on the answer and even whether it should be a rules issue or better dealt with outside the rule book (mechanics issue to be dealt with in manuals and at seminars).
To Dave:
How does Canadian Hockey handle this issue? Is there any interest in tracking roughing and checking separately? Do you include it in the rule book, the situations manual, or is it just taught from a mechanics standpoint?
To the list:
I welcome your thoughts on this issue.
~ Joe Merc
--
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Joseph P. Mercadante
Manager of Information Systems
Eastmount Environmental, Inc.
email@hidden
508-668-9005
420 Main Street
Walpole, MA 02081
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:40:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Cammi Granato
Message-ID:
I saw the same game Peggy did, and I beg to disagree - this was a charity
game that involved NHLers, child actors from the Mighty Ducks movies, and two
female goalies (Rheaume and Whitten). Cammi Granato was taking it much more
seriously than the other players, yes, but saying that because she was able
to keep up in a game that included several adolescents she could keep in an
NHL game is like saying that because the local high school team looks good in
the state finals, they could take on a pro team and win.
Remember, Cammi declined a contract with *roller hockey* a few years ago, and
roller hockey teams are largely stocked with Central and Colonial League
players, not even AHLers. If she didn't think she could play in the RHI, she
was absolutely right to turn the Isles down.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:50:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: basketball
Message-ID:
I live in an ABL city (Springfield, MA), which also is near the University of
Connecticut. Fans *will* come to women's basketball - the Blizzard drew at
about half capacity in Springfield (around 3,500), or around 1,300 less than
the local AHL team. Gampel Pavilion regularly sells out Lady Huskies' games.
I also heard that other women's hoop powerhouses like Tennessee and Stanford
draw very well.
It's mainly a matter of education and relentless publicity; USA Basketball
signed Rebecca Lobo, for instance, not because she was one of the best
players available (she was a spare part for the Olympics) but because she was
immensely popular and had the name recognition to draw fans to watch the
Olympic team. Once they watched, they saw other players like Teresa Edwards,
Lisa Leslie and Ruthie Bolton and liked what they saw...but first the average
fan needed the hook.
The Olympics next year should help, but a women's pro team in North America
isn't realistic for the near future. I'm really looking forward to seeing
what happens after the Olympics in terms of hockey registration for women -
should be quite a difference!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:50:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: USA Nationals - Elmer Layton's results
Message-ID:
Did you play goal for the Blue Jay's in 85 National finals??
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:38:22 -0400
From: Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Cammi Granato
Message-ID:
>Remember, Cammi declined a contract with *roller hockey* a few years ago, and
>roller hockey teams are largely stocked with Central and Colonial League
>players, not even AHLers. If she didn't think she could play in the RHI, she
>was absolutely right to turn the Isles down.
Maybe the Olympics are a bigger drawing card for Cammi than a contract with
an NHL team that was thrown out as a publicity stunt.
Debbie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:31:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: USA Nationals - Elmer Layton's results
Message-ID:
June-
I saw your game against Team Southeast (a team we lost to 12-1 by the way
earlier in the series) and thought you folks did an amazing job! It was
difficult for our team to get psyched to play so many Nike pants. Your team
held some outstanding players at bay with good solid fore- and back-checking
and, may I say, some truly **outstanding** goaltending. Everyone of us in the
stands were cheering for you and for your team and you did all of Minnesota
proud with your efforts and athleticism. If you truly do retire (and come
on, if you go what will we, at 35, have to aspire to???) I think you can do
so with peace and pride in a fantastic job well done. Congratulations.
Sue Edwards McDowell
O'Leary Hawks
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:34:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Nationals -Reply
Message-ID:
My understanding was the Squirts were won by the Wisconsin Challengers.
Confirmation anyone??
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:04:51 -0400
From: "Elmer A. Laydon"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Nationals -Reply
Message-ID:
email@hidden wrote:
>
> My understanding was the Squirts were won by the Wisconsin Challengers.
> Confirmation anyone??
Yes, the Challengers were from Wisconsin.
Elmer Laydon
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:47:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Goons
Message-ID:
The same way that Denis Savard, Wayne Gretzky and Paul Kariya handle goons:
they don't. NHL teams always carry a player whose sole job is to protect
the skill players from opposing goons. Remember how Wayne Gretzky kept
having his teams trade for Marty McSorley? McSorley *can* play, but he's
also very good at protecting the Great One.
------------------------------
Date: 16 Apr 1997 09:43:23 -0400
From: Jan de Regt
To: email@hidden (Return requested),
Subject: Re[2]: Fees for goalies
It would depend on what options were available for me! It would also
depend on whether I knew this was a possibility two years ago when I
joined the organization - I always like being informed at the
beginning!
What do other clubs in your area charge goalies? And of course, even
though they would be paying more than before, it's not more than
anyone else - all of whom have been subsidizing the goalies for those
two years.
Jan.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Fees for goalies
Author: email@hidden at Internet
Date: 4/15/97 4:01 PM
SYRILYN TONG wrote:
>
> As a goalie, I know that I've received special fees for
> many leagues that I've played in, but not all leagues. I
> believe the rationale is if goalies are hard to come by,
> you can entice them into playing by cutting (or in some
> cases waiving) their fees. So your decision may actually
> change as your league evolves and more goalies become
> available and desire to play in your league (I'm assuming
> there are not many now!)
How would you feel if, after 2 seasons, the subsidy was lifted and you
were suddenly paying twice what you were before? I worry that we would
suddenly lose our goalies.
Thanks for the comment....
Lea
#2 - Houston Harpies
--
email@hidden
*******************
"Forget conventionalisms; forget what the world will say, whether you
are in your place or out of your place; think your best thoughts, speak
your best words, do your best works, looking [only] to you own
conscience for approval."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:51:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Strong"
To: email@hidden
Subject: St Mary's Hockey Camp
Message-ID:
My daughter is considering attending St. Mary's Hockey Camp (Winona,
Minnesota) next summer. I would appreciate any comments others may
have regarding the quality of this camp. We are looking for training
that will be valuable to an experienced player (10 years boys hockey,
2 years girls hockey).
Please respond to me at the address below. Thanks in advance.
Dave Strong
email@hidden
------------------------------
End of WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 538
*********************************