Parent
WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 537
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Cammi Granato
by Anne Paulson
2) Re: hockey web sites
by Dina Wingard
3) Re: Cammi Granato
by email@hidden
4) Re: 1997 US National Championships
by email@hidden
5) RE:USA Nationals - Elmer Layton's results
by "June Wheeler"
6)
by Jeff Granger
7) Re: Cammi Granato declines tryout with the Islanders
by email@hidden
8) Re: mud wrestling vs. checking
by email@hidden
9) San Jose area hockey?
by PETER PICKERING
10) Re: Checking, etc
by "Jay Provost"
11) Re: Fees for goalies
by "Jay Provost"
12) Re: Cammi Granato
by email@hidden
13) mud wrestling vs. checking - part two
by email@hidden
14) women in the NHL
by leia with cinnamon buns
15) Re: women in the NHL
by "David R. Strong"
16) Re[2]: mud wrestling vs. checking
by Jan de Regt
17) Re: women in the NHL
by Jan de Regt
18) Re: Nike skates
by email@hidden
19) Nationals
by "Deathe, Barbara - DC"
20) Re: Playing Philosophy/Styles
by email@hidden
21) Re: Cammi Granato declines tryout with the Islanders
by email@hidden
22) Nationals -Reply
by "Joanna L. Avery"
23) Re: women in the NHL
by email@hidden
24) Re: mud wrestling vs. checking
by June Nejman
25) re: minor provincials
by email@hidden
26) Re: Nationals -Reply
by Alicia L Roberts
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:07:53 -0700
From: Anne Paulson
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Cammi Granato
Message-ID:
> A better reason is that from what I've seen, the women's teams aren't fast
> enough to skate with the men. I have no idea why - most American players
> were on high school boys teams and could keep up then - but the college teams
> I've seen were noticeably slower than men's college or low minor teams.
Isn't this just a case of depth? There aren't many female hockey players,
compared to how many male players there are, so in order to field a team you
have to include weaker players, and that would make the women's collegiate
teams look slower than their male counterparts.
-- Anne Paulson
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:33:02 -0400
From: Dina Wingard
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: hockey web sites
Message-ID:
At 06:22 PM 4/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
My personal favorite is WBS NHL chat or http://www.wbs.com/ Dina
>I'm kind of new to the web and just can't get enough of the hockey sites.
> I'd love to hear which ones are your favorites to add to my list. Send me
>your favorites!
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 15:20:12 PST
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Cammi Granato
Message-ID:
Lisa Evans wrote >
---------------------------------------------------
A better reason is that from what I've seen, the women's teams
aren't fast enough to skate with the men... If Granato had
accepted the tryout, the best she could have hoped for was
playing in the Colonial League.
---------------------------------------------------
I beg to differ with this statement.
I watched Cammi play with members of the Kings and Ducks in a
benefit game a couple of years ago. She has as much speed, if
not more that the men. Since this was an exhibition game, there
was no checking and the defense could not stop her. She skated
rings around the other players and held her own against her
brother and Gretzky. I wondered back then why a team didn't give
her a tryout.
I can understand her reluctance to tryout for an NHL team (any
team!) When I see such an outstanding (and quick) player like
Paul Kariya (5"9", 165#) get bashed on the ice, I would wonder
what would happen to a smaller player like Cammi. Also who needs
the circus show. One of these days a women will cross the line
again, but when....? We can only hope soon. That person will
have to be both an outstanding player and be ready to take total
destruction of her private live.
Peggy
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:01:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: 1997 US National Championships
Message-ID:
In a message dated 97-04-13 11:58:33 EDT, you write:
<< n both the PeeWee and Midget divisions it will be the Connecticut Polar
Bears vs. Michigan for the National Championship this afternoon >>
Is this the championship that you were referring to. Now that makes sense
but I read your mail first. Mom
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 22:58:17 UT
From: "June Wheeler"
To: email@hidden
Subject: RE:USA Nationals - Elmer Layton's results
Message-ID:
To correct Elmer, the PeeWees and Midgets were from MINNESOTA, not Michigan.
The MN Thoroughbred PeeWees lost to the PBears 5-2; I don't know what happened
with the MN Thoroughbred Midgets because I had to go to the airport.
The Minnesota Blue J's Senior A team almost had the upset of the Tourney,
losing to the ringer-laden Team Southeast (three team USA members, the rest in
development camp level), 1-0. Team Southeast scored with 20 seconds left in
regulation.
I happened to have been the Blue J's goalie in that game, possibly my last
hurrah at age 38.8 - had a grade 2 tear of my medial collateral ligament in my
left knee in the first period (again) and will try the rehab route once more.
Congrats to all of the teams - it was a really fun tournament, my most
memorable.
June Wheeler, #30 Minnesota Blue J's (and a lefty!)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:31:50 +0000
From: Jeff Granger
To: Women-In-Hockey
Subject:
Message-ID:
Can anyone out there give the "lowdown" on a game-by-game basis on
how the Team Michigan Midget girls did at the U.S. Nationals? Its looks
like they didn't make it to the finals from what I've seen posted, but as the
father of their former other goalie until she quit to sit on the bench of her
high school team I have a great interest in this team and would like to
hear it all.
Thanks, oops is my bitterness showing?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:01:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Cammi Granato declines tryout with the Islanders
Message-ID:
That article appeared in the New York Daily News last week too. Pretty cool
for Cammie! Unfortunately, the Isles have't done so well. They could use
some of the women's fire!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:12:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: mud wrestling vs. checking
Message-ID:
One of the things I have spent a lot of time thinking about is why there are
so few people interested in watching women's hockey. I've talked to both men
and women, hockey fans and non-hockey fans and most of them have given me
similar feedback: men's hockey is fast - they skate fast, they shoot fast and
they get into fights fast. They all felt that women's hockey would be slow
and uninteresting because there's no checking. A lot pf people who don't like
hockey just watch it to see the fights!
THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY MY OPINION - JUST THE OPINION OF PEOPLE I HAVE TALKED
TO ABOUT WATCHING WOMEN'S ICE HOCKEY!!!!!
Goldberg said: "We are talking about hockey, not mud wrestling or roller
derby. Checking may be a fact of life, but women fighting as a publicity
draw is a little (a lot?) sexist."
Who ever said that getting publicity wasn't based on gender or doesn't
include sexism?
Jenn
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:34:36 -0700
From: PETER PICKERING
To: "'email@hidden'"
Subject: San Jose area hockey?
Message-ID:
Any ice time, spring/summer clinics in the San Jose area?
I'm often down there on business mid-week, and have to miss my regular ice time. Instead of getting pissed off, maybe I can skate down there instead. Any one have info?
--Barbara Pickering
Seattle Puckhawks
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:32:26 +0000
From: "Jay Provost"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Checking, etc
Message-ID:
> >> Very well put, Becka. I had said something along the same about
> >>checking, but
> >> had also joked about women fighting being a "publicity' draw. Of course, I
> >> didin't mean that women should fight in or during a game...
> >
> >
> >Why not???? Its part of any really good hockey game.
> >Also, why should men's and women's hockey be so
> >different when it comes to checking and fighting
>
> We are talking about hockey, not mud wrestling or roller derby. Checking
> may be a fact of life, but women fighting as a publicity draw is a little
> (a lot?) sexist.
>
>
NO!!!
I mean the same game for all sexes!!!!!
When I watch a hockey game I don't care if its men or women playing.
Its the game I came to see, and checking/fighting are part of the
game.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:32:26 +0000
From: "Jay Provost"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Fees for goalies
Message-ID:
>
> As a goalie, I know that I've received special fees for
> many leagues that I've played in, but not all leagues. I
> believe the rationale is if goalies are hard to come by,
> you can entice them into playing by cutting (or in some
> cases waiving) their fees. So your decision may actually
> change as your league evolves and more goalies become
> available and desire to play in your league (I'm assuming
> there are not many now!)
>
I have been having a hard time finding a league for my daughter to
play in. Here in Dallas/Fort Worth area I found a few boy's teams
but no girl's team/leagues. But now she
think about being a goalie, suddenly some of the boys only leagues
are interested in her playing for them.
I find interesting that need for goalies overrides sexism.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:06:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Cammi Granato
Message-ID:
The field is smaller, yes, but again, don't most of the Americans play on
boys' high school teams? The college teams are *noticeably* slower than a
good high school team, and a good high school team is almost as fast as a
Tier II junior team (I saw a local Tier II team that has produced a couple of
NHLers and a state hockey finalist play in the same season, and the major
difference was that the 'Pics were *bigger* than Cathedral). I can't think
of any reason for a girl who was fast enough to keep up with a boys' team
when she's seventeen to suddenly slow down when she's twenty, yet that's
exactly what seems to happen. Women can skate almost as fast as men (look at
Bonnie Blair), but I swear, there wasn't *one* player on either the Dartmouth
or the Northeastern team this spring who could have kept up in the Colonial
League, and of all the pro leagues I've seen (Colonial, IHL, AHL, and ECHL),
the Colonial is by far the slowest and least skilled.
I know this isn't going to be popular, and I may be wrong (I *hope* I'm
wrong), but it sure looked like the teams were being told to play only as
quickly as the slowest girls on the roster. Maybe when more female players
come along the good programs can start being pickier about who makes varsity
and who stays on the club team.
Cammi was right not to accept the tryout. Unless she's really racheted up
the foot speed, she wouldn't have even made Worcester, let alone the
Islanders, and there would have been even more ammunition for the idiots who
think girls should stick to ringette. Maybe in a few years a big forward
will have a shot at the pros, but right now it simply isn't going to happen.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:23:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: mud wrestling vs. checking - part two
Message-ID:
Earlier I said, "Who ever said that getting publicity wasn't based on gender
or doesn't include sexism? "
I apologize if I have offended anyone. I do not think that anyone should have
to give in to sexist attitudes and opinions to get publicity for a sport
which is growing incredibly fast without a lot of publicity.
Women's ice hockey is a wonderful sport to play and to watch (although I did
not see any of the championship games). I played on a club team throughout
college and that may be why the attitudes I encountered were so negative. The
people I spoke with probably did not realize that there are many levels above
club hockey.
I just wanted to clear this up before anyone gets upset :-)
Jenn
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:14:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: leia with cinnamon buns
To: email@hidden
Subject: women in the NHL
Message-ID:
Dear Fellow Readers,
Since women are usually smaller than men, why don't the high
school and college teams show women how to weight train correctly, so
that when the day comes when women are in the NHL(hopefully soon) they
will not feel over powered?
Sherri Singer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:25:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David R. Strong"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: women in the NHL
Message-ID:
Women's sports have come a long way, and the ride isn't over yet.
I hate to see the success of female hockey judged by participation
in the NHL. Sure, it's a golden nugget when Cammi gets a serious
invitation for a tryout or Manon or Erin gets a win in the minors.
But success should not hinge on "making it" to the National League.
The women's olympic basketball team (called the REAL DREAM TEAM by many)
had a fantastic year in '96, yet none were drafted by the NBA. Does
anyone think less of them?
Do we look down on Monica Seles or Steffi Graf because they aren't
beating the top men in tennis?
Are our olympic track and field women judged by how their times or points
compare with the men?
The ultimate goal for women's hockey should involve expansion and acceptance
of their sport, not playing in the NHL.
Regarding weight training, I think anyone who looked into it would find that
most of the top teams and players already have a solid conditioning program
that includes weight training.
Dave Strong
email@hidden
------------------------------
Date: 15 Apr 1997 10:26:28 -0400
From: Jan de Regt
To: email@hidden (Return requested),
Subject: Re[2]: mud wrestling vs. checking
So why don't people watch women's basketball, or women's softball?
Their male counterparts aren't notorious for getting into fights, but
the answer from "those people" is always the same - the women's game
isn't as fast and intense as the men's game.
Is it culture? Is it truth? I am sure it is a combination, but
changing the game *just because that's the way the men's game is
played* is not a valid action in my mind! There should be a real
reason to make a change - benefits derived, not just a reaction!
Jan.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: mud wrestling vs. checking
Author: email@hidden at Internet
Date: 4/14/97 11:49 PM
One of the things I have spent a lot of time thinking about is why there are
so few people interested in watching women's hockey. I've talked to both men
and women, hockey fans and non-hockey fans and most of them have given me
similar feedback: men's hockey is fast - they skate fast, they shoot fast and
they get into fights fast. They all felt that women's hockey would be slow
and uninteresting because there's no checking. A lot pf people who don't like
hockey just watch it to see the fights!
THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY MY OPINION - JUST THE OPINION OF PEOPLE I HAVE TALKED
TO ABOUT WATCHING WOMEN'S ICE HOCKEY!!!!!
Goldberg said: "We are talking about hockey, not mud wrestling or roller
derby. Checking may be a fact of life, but women fighting as a publicity
draw is a little (a lot?) sexist."
Who ever said that getting publicity wasn't based on gender or doesn't
include sexism?
Jenn
------------------------------
Date: 15 Apr 1997 10:28:00 -0400
From: Jan de Regt
To: email@hidden (Return requested),
Subject: Re: women in the NHL
This discussion is butting heads with phyisology. I am sure this will
be an emensely unpopular comment, but here goes.
The average man is stronger than the average woman, and a highly
trained professional male athelete is stronger than a highly trained
professional female athelete. This is not to say there are not a few
exceptions out there, of course. Look at world records in speed and
weight between men and women. You don't think those women have been
taught proper weight training?
Jan.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: women in the NHL
Author: email@hidden at Internet
Date: 4/15/97 8:42 AM
Dear Fellow Readers,
Since women are usually smaller than men, why don't the high
school and college teams show women how to weight train correctly, so
that when the day comes when women are in the NHL(hopefully soon) they
will not feel over powered?
Sherri Singer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:56:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Nike skates
Message-ID:
Hi !
I've been skating with the Bauer Air 90 skates since september and they're
the ones Sergei Fedorov wore at the all-star game last year that bore the
Nike "wave". I don't know if you consider them Nike skates but I believe they
are. I think that in Canada, Bauer will stay as the trademark because it's
such a notorious brandname in Canada for hockey equipment. I love those
skates, they're hot too, very comfortable from the first time to now. It was
a bit funny at first because I find the blades are angles differently than on
my previous skates (CCM). All in all, it was a good buy!!
Au revoir!
Julie BOYER, Montreal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 11:00:00 DST
From: "Deathe, Barbara - DC"
To: Women-in-Hockey
Subject: Nationals
Message-ID:
Anyone know the final results of the Nationals for all the divisions?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:09:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Playing Philosophy/Styles
Message-ID:
Hi Jackie!
There is a big difference and at the same time a very fine line between being
involved and intense during the play and be outright aggressive and overly
rough during a hockey game. Personnally, I don't mind taking body contact as
long as it has a purpose, like getting to the puck first or stopping someone
in front of the net from getting the puck, and that the sticks stay on the
ice. Any use of the stick that doesn't involve the other player's stick or
the puck is dirty. I hope you agree with me because I hope that these are the
differences between women's hockey and men's that make women's hockey so much
more enjoyable!
Julie BOYER, Montreal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:16:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Cammi Granato declines tryout with the Islanders
Message-ID:
Hi!
I really agree with Cammi, I think she made the right choice. Women don't
have their place in men's NHL. It's dirty, rough and the more they go, the
more small male players get injured, some seriously. It's not that women
don't have talent, skills or speed, it's just that geneically, men are bigger
and more muscular than women. Manon Rheaume in goals is a different story,
but I still believe a big reason for her playing with the pro was a big
publiicty thing. Tell them Cammi!
By the way, I'm sure some developpers in the USA will soon try a pro women's
hockey league..... Anything for money down south. I hope it will work, for
the sake of the developpment of girls and women's hockey all around the
world!
Julie BOYER, Montreal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:22:20 -0400
From: "Joanna L. Avery"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Nationals -Reply
Message-ID:
Senior A - Team Southeast
Senior B - Springfield (MA) She Devils
PeeWee - CT Polar Bears
Midget - CT Polar Bears
Squirt (Exhibition) - Michigan Challengers (I think they were from
Michigan!)
>>> "Deathe, Barbara - DC" 04/15/97 11:09am
>>>
Anyone know the final results of the Nationals for all the divisions?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:25:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: women in the NHL
Message-ID:
As I've said before, men are genetically bigger and more muscular than women.
If a woman wants to be as big and strong as a man, she would have to be
genetically built for it (like 6 feet ) and take muscle enhancing drugs, most
probably.
Julie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:37:22 -0400
From: June Nejman
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: mud wrestling vs. checking
Message-ID:
At 08:01 PM 4/14/97 -0700, you wrote:
>One of the things I have spent a lot of time thinking about is why there are
>so few people interested in watching women's hockey. I've talked to both men
>and women, hockey fans and non-hockey fans and most of them have given me
>similar feedback: men's hockey is fast - they skate fast, they shoot fast and
>they get into fights fast. They all felt that women's hockey would be slow
>and uninteresting because there's no checking. A lot pf people who don't like
>hockey just watch it to see the fights!
>
>THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY MY OPINION - JUST THE OPINION OF PEOPLE I HAVE TALKED
>TO ABOUT WATCHING WOMEN'S ICE HOCKEY!!!!!
>
>Goldberg said: "We are talking about hockey, not mud wrestling or roller
>derby. Checking may be a fact of life, but women fighting as a publicity
>draw is a little (a lot?) sexist."
>
>Who ever said that getting publicity wasn't based on gender or doesn't
>include sexism?
>
>Jenn
>
>
"They" also say the same thing about women's tennis (except for the
fighting part)- too slow! It's going to take some time, as it has for
other women's sports, to develop a following for our game - so let's get
out there and support those girls and women's teams.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:36:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: re: minor provincials
Message-ID:
Hi!
I would just like to tell you all about the minor girls provincial
championships that were held in Quebec this past week-end!
I was one of the organizers and we had a very good time. We received 13
teams from different regions of Quebec, divided in 3 divisions, based on
strength. They were all-star teams of girls 16 and under. Unfortunately,
girls hockey in Quebec is still at an embryonic stage and most girls play
with boys. I would like to point out though that there was a big difference
between the style of play of girls playing with boys and those with girls.
The intensity was there, the skills, the speed but girls who play with boys
were definitely more dirty, using their sticks for other purposes than
getting the puck in the net! That didn't make them win the tournaments, be
assured!
I'll conclude by saying that it was a great week-end, my first time as a
tournament organizer (I've played in countless !) and here are the winners:
DIVISION 1 Quebec
Abitibi-temiscamingue
Gaspesie Les Iles
Mauricie
Bas St-Laurent
DIVISION 2 Outaouais
Laval
Richelieu
Lac ST-Louis
DIVISION 3 Laurentides-Lanaudiere
Cote-Nord
Lac St-Louis (hostess)
Montreal
Long live women's hockey!!
Julie BOYER, Montreal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:48:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alicia L Roberts
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Nationals -Reply
Message-ID:
Was the Michigan team the Metro Flyers or Team USA (Team Michigan)?
Alicia Roberts
UNH Wildcats #31
On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Joanna L. Avery wrote:
> Senior A - Team Southeast
> Senior B - Springfield (MA) She Devils
> PeeWee - CT Polar Bears
> Midget - CT Polar Bears
> Squirt (Exhibition) - Michigan Challengers (I think they were from
> Michigan!)
>
> >>> "Deathe, Barbara - DC" 04/15/97 11:09am
> >>>
>
> Anyone know the final results of the Nationals for all the divisions?
>
------------------------------
End of WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 537
*********************************