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Subject: Re: women-in-hockey digest, Vol 2 #149 - 8 msgs
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:58:56 +0000
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I can vouch for what Bridger said.  This is typical of 
what happens at this rink.  There is a complete double 
standard and a lot of backstabbing (sounds like fun, 
heh?).  Bridget, I would suggest approaching the rink 
manager or assistant manager and discussing the problem 
and the personal feelings that you think are getting in 
the way.  It is not fair that there are other teams that 
are allowed to play with WOMEN who are under the age of 
18.  The rink management may not even be aware this is 
happening.
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> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Canadian Olympic Team books (Jen Van Den Hoogen)
>    2. Women's World Inline Championship websites (michael johansson)
>    3. Women's Tournament In Aston, PA (bridget kaskela)
>    4. Regarding Women's Inline Worlds, and NGB's (Dan Guard)
>    5. RE: Women's Tournament In Aston, PA (email@hidden)
>    6. Re: Women's Tournament In Aston, PA (Bruce & Karen Tennant)
>    7. Women's Tournament - Aston (bridget kaskela)
>    8. island waves seeking a goalie and a few 19u girls (email@hidden)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 18:57:41 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jen Van Den Hoogen 
> Subject: Canadian Olympic Team books
> To: email@hidden
> 
> Hello everyone:)
> 
>   I was just wondering if anybody knows if anyone from
> the team is or will be writing a book about their
> olympic experience.  I know about the picture books
> but they are mostly about the mens team.
> 
> Jen
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 20:59:24 -0700 (PDT)
> From: michael johansson 
> Subject: Women's World Inline Championship websites
> To: email@hidden
> 
> Hi Jodi and all,
> 
> I tries to send this as a reply all, but it
> doesn't seem to have worked, so I sending it
> directly to women-n-hockey.
> 
> This is not a IIHF or USA Hockey sponsored
> tournament, as USA Hockey is no longer the USOC
> organization responsible for inline hockey in the
> USA, as USA Roller Sports has taken over.  
> 
> The USA team page can be found at
> 
>  
> 
> The tournament page is at
> 
> 
> 
> The USA Roller Sports Women's WC home page is 
> 
> 
> 
> The above should work, but if not, the US team
> lost last night to Canada 4-2 in the round robin.
>  
> 
> Good luck in your search, and thanks for your
> interest.
> 
> Good luck to Team USA, hopefully, they will come
> through in the Championship game.
> 
> Mike Johansson  
> 
> 
> 
> --- Jodi Cohen  wrote:
> > Actually, I was wondering the same thing.  I
> > did a pretty extensive 
> > search and there isn't even a word about the
> > wwc on the USA hockey 
> > site.  What is up with that?!?!?
> > 
> > ---Jodi
> > 
> > 
> > >Has anyone heard any of the results of the
> > games that were played on 
> > >Friday, July 19th?  I can't find them anywhere
> > on the Net.
> > >
> > >Thanks
> > >
> > >Denise
> > >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 22:25:07 -0700 (PDT)
> From: bridget kaskela 
> Subject: Women's Tournament In Aston, PA
> To: email@hidden
> 
> I am a 17 year old ice hockey player from Pennsylvania. Over the last few months 
> I played on a spring league team comprised of girls from ages 11-18. We played 
> in a Women's A Division, In-House League at Iceworks, in which we won the 
> championship. On August 3rd and 4th, the same rink is sponsoring a women's 
> tournament, but they won't let our team play claiming that you must be 18 or > older to be considered a woman. This is the part that we dont understand 
> because the dictionary defines women as the female part of the human race. Also, 
> USA Hockeys website states that you can be any age to play womens hockey. We 
> are very interested in outsiders opinions dealing with this issue because if we 
> were allowed to play womens teams in the rinks spring league, can we be denied 
> the same thing for their tournament? We are led to believe that there are other 
> teams in the tournament that include players under the age of 18, which also 
> adds to our confusion. Thank you for your time and !
> help.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 4
> From: "Dan Guard" 
> To: "michael johansson" , "Jodi Cohen"
>   , 
> Subject: Regarding Women's Inline Worlds, and NGB's
> Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 23:46:58 -0700
> 
> All:
> 
> With all due respect to all concerned, in personal conversations with both
> Gary del Vechio and Jake Mersberger (and I apologize to both these fine
> hockey gentlemen for name mispellings), what has occured in the world of
> governance in national/international inline hockey is:
> 
> 1. USARS' team representing our country in the recent Pan American games
> ellicited a written reference from a USOC board member noting USARS as the
> United States' organization responsible for putting the team together. The
> USOC, as an organization, has made no formal process recognition of any
> national organization as a governing body. USA Hockey Inline has filed
> formal grievance with the USOC over this situation.
> 
> 2. USARS continues to use the notation "National Governing Body of
> competitive roller sports," in its headers and such. USA Hockey notes that
> it is "the National Governing Body for ice hockey."
> 
> 3. In practice, both organizations continue to host/hold  regional and
> national level programs for players, officials, coaches. Both are
> not-for-profit. Both care about the development of the inline sport.
> 
> 4. FIRS and IIHF, the international organizations that USARS and USAHIL
> affiliate with, respectively, also both continue to claim the wheeled
> version of hockey as their own. The IOC has yet to declare either as a
> governing body.
> 
> 5. The Congress of the United States has made no appointment to any
> organization to hold NGB office.
> 
> 6. We applaud FIRS, and USARS,  for producing the first Women's World Inline
> Championship, we continue to follow the USA and Canada teams through
> www.inlinehockeycentral.com .
> 
> 7. We applaud USAHIL for hosting the first Girls' divisions at its Youth
> Nationals. The Polar Bears will be joined by the Prince William Island teams
> (the Junior Panthers and Panthers I) and Team Atlanta in the 12 & under
> division.
> 
> Both organizations continue to do fine work on the growth and development of
> inline hockey for women and girl players at a variety of levels.
> 
> As everybody on this newsgroup knows, there are a variety of reasons why any
> player or team plays hockey. Each player or group that wishes to affiliate
> with either (or both, there ain't no rule that says you can't support both,
> yet) USARS or USAHIL would need to weigh their objectives with that of the
> national organizations, and join accordingly.
> 
> I would be happy to discuss further our very specific, numerous reasons why
> the Polar Bears have been members of USA Hockey Inline since 1995, if
> anybody cares to know.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> -Dan, Caitlin, and all the little Polar Bears truckin' down to Atlanta for
> Nationals this coming weekend!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "michael johansson" 
> Subject: Re: Women's World In-Line Championships - ESL Center, Rochester NY
> 
> 
> > Hi Jodi and all,
> >
> > This is not a IIHF or USA Hockey sponsored
> > tournament, as USA Hockey is no longer the USOC
> > organization responsible for inline hockey in the
> > USA, as USA Roller Sports has taken over.
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 5
> Reply-To: email@hidden
> From: "email@hidden" 
> To: email@hidden, email@hidden
> Subject: RE: Women's Tournament In Aston, PA
> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:41:04 -0400
> 
> Bridget,
> 
> I believe that I know which tournament you are talking about.  The
> tournament is not being run by the rink but by, I believe, the Philadelphia
> Freeze.  It is probably their decision to make it an adult women's
> tournament.  The spring league that you played in was run by another group
> and therefore the age restrictions were different.  USA Hockey allows you
> to make further restrictions on their rules, which is what happened in this
> tournament.
> 
> J.E.
> 
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: bridget kaskela email@hidden
> Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 22:25:07 -0700 (PDT)
> To: email@hidden
> Subject: Women's Tournament In Aston, PA
> 
> 
> I am a 17 year old ice hockey player from Pennsylvania. Over the last few
> months I played on a spring league team comprised of girls from ages 11-18.
> We played in a Women's A Division, In-House League at Iceworks, in which we
> won the championship. On August 3rd and 4th, the same rink is sponsoring a
> women's tournament, but they won't let our team play claiming that you must
> be 18 or older to be considered a woman. This is the part that we dont
> understand because the dictionary defines women as the female part of the
> human race. Also, USA Hockeys website states that you can be any age to
> play womens hockey. We are very interested in outsiders opinions dealing
> with this issue because if we were allowed to play womens teams in the
> rinks spring league, can we be denied the same thing for their tournament?
> We are led to believe that there are other teams in the tournament that
> include players under the age of 18, which also adds to our confusion.
> Thank you for your time and !
> help.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> _______________________________________________
> women-in-hockey mailing list | email@hidden
> Help/Unsubscribe/Archives:
> http://www.plaidworks.com/mailman/listinfo/women-in-hockey
> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 6
> From: "Bruce & Karen Tennant" 
> To: , ,
>   
> Subject: Re: Women's Tournament In Aston, PA
> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:25:12 -0400
> 
> Bridget
> Yes....I agree.
> Our womens league runs a womens summer hockey league in Toronto and we allow
> "girls" aged 15 and up to play in the womens divisions.
> But at our tournament in June, it has been our understanding that women from
> other areas may take exception to having the younger players play and for
> that reason we have not allowed them to participate.
> In Ontario, womens senior is defined as 20 and over at the recreational
> level, but there is no age restriction in competitive divisions.
> 
> Karen
> Toronto Icebreakers Womens Hockey Club
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: ; 
> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 12:41 PM
> Subject: RE: Women's Tournament In Aston, PA
> 
> 
> > Bridget,
> >
> > I believe that I know which tournament you are talking about.  The
> > tournament is not being run by the rink but by, I believe, the
> Philadelphia
> > Freeze.  It is probably their decision to make it an adult women's
> > tournament.  The spring league that you played in was run by another group
> > and therefore the age restrictions were different.  USA Hockey allows you
> > to make further restrictions on their rules, which is what happened in
> this
> > tournament.
> >
> > J.E.
> >
> > Original Message:
> > -----------------
> > From: bridget kaskela email@hidden
> > Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 22:25:07 -0700 (PDT)
> > To: email@hidden
> > Subject: Women's Tournament In Aston, PA
> >
> >
> > I am a 17 year old ice hockey player from Pennsylvania. Over the last few
> > months I played on a spring league team comprised of girls from ages
> 11-18.
> > We played in a Women's A Division, In-House League at Iceworks, in which
> we
> > won the championship. On August 3rd and 4th, the same rink is sponsoring a
> > women's tournament, but they won't let our team play claiming that you
> must
> > be 18 or older to be considered a woman. This is the part that we dont
> > understand because the dictionary defines women as the female part of the
> > human race. Also, USA Hockeys website states that you can be any age to
> > play womens hockey. We are very interested in outsiders opinions dealing
> > with this issue because if we were allowed to play womens teams in the
> > rinks spring league, can we be denied the same thing for their
> tournament?
> > We are led to believe that there are other teams in the tournament that
> > include players under the age of 18, which also adds to our confusion.
> > Thank you for your time and !
> > help.
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > _______________________________________________
> > women-in-hockey mailing list | email@hidden
> > Help/Unsubscribe/Archives:
> > http://www.plaidworks.com/mailman/listinfo/women-in-hockey
> > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> > http://mail2web.com/ .
> > _______________________________________________
> > women-in-hockey mailing list | email@hidden
> > Help/Unsubscribe/Archives:
> http://www.plaidworks.com/mailman/listinfo/women-in-hockey
> > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:44:03 -0700 (PDT)
> From: bridget kaskela 
> Subject: Women's Tournament - Aston
> To: email@hidden
> 
> I'd like to thank everyone who responded, but there were some apparent 
> misunderstandings which I feel I need to clarify.  We only had a couple people 
> on our roster, under the age of 15, that would be playing in the tournament, 
> because the one 11 year old wouldn't be able to make it.  The youngest person 
> who would be playing is 13 and is 5' 7, so she's not really an issue. Also, well 
> over half the people on our roster are 17, months shy of being "a woman."   We 
> were also including people aged 18 and over on our team, but that somehow did > not matter.  Also, none of the people on our team, or their parents, had any 
> problems during the season with injuries, language, physicality, etc that often 
> occur when "girls" play "women's" teams.  Our team was also held well under 
> control seeing as how we were near the bottom of the league in penalty minutes.
> 
> In some responses I got people said that the tournament is being run by a 
> different group than the spring league so the rules are different.  this is not 
> true however, they were both run by the rink, just organized by different 
> people.  the woman who organized it is coincidently, the mother of a girl on one 
> of the teams we beat.  the rink said that it is still their tournament, but they 
> had someone else organize it because they did not know how to get in touch with 
> women's teams.
> 
> We did not want to play in this tournament to win, we just wanted to play.  Some 
> people apparently thought that we were gonna enter in a low division to win.  
> Thsi is not true, we wanted to enter the highest division.
> 
> Also, I recieved a response stating that there are tournaments for girls.  That 
> is true, but we have not been made aware of any in our area during the summer.  
> Which is what we need as this is only a summer team. 
> 
> When we joined the spring league, they said that in order to play, everyone on 
> the roster must be registered with USA Hockey and covered by their insurance, 
> which everyone is.  Therefore, underage insurance is not an issue.
> 
> The only thing that people did not respond to, which I am still curious about, 
> is if we are not allowed to enter because we are not 18, can they allow other 
> girls in who are under 18 also?
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 8
> From: email@hidden
> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:39:35 EDT
> Subject: island waves seeking a goalie and a few 19u girls 
> To: email@hidden
> 
> Hi all - 
>         The Island Waves is a girls ice hockey organization for girls on Long 
> Island and the NYC metro area. 
>       The Island Waves 19u team is seeking a goalie  and a few 19u girls  
> (ages 14 - 19) for the 2002-2003 season.   We also offer a 15U travel team 
> and a developmental team as well.  
>      We participate in the Atlantic Women's Hockey League and we are 
> registered as a TierII NYS tournament bound organization.   We also offer 
> spring and summer clinics that girls can attend on a weekly basis.  For more 
> info... check out our website at www.islandwaveshockey.com or call me at 
> 516-679-8277 with any questions.  
>          thanks - Judy Pernick (VP Island Waves) 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> _______________________________________________
> women-in-hockey mailing list | email@hidden
> Help/Unsubscribe/Archives: 
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> 
> End of women-in-hockey Digest

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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:09:36 EDT
Subject: Women's tournament 
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I can't believe this has become such an issue.  This is NOT a personal attack 
against the Phantoms.  Any other girls team would get the same reaction and 
answer.  It is not a hard concept to grasp.  This is a women's tournament for 
senior teams.  Girls teams are not invited to play in senior tournaments just 
as senior teams are not allowed to participate in girls tournaments.  This is 
not a new rule.  Personally, I've participated in tournament in other cities 
such as Pittsburgh, Toronto and Montreal and they have the same rules.  I 
understand there isn't a division in this particular tournament for girls but 
at the same time, I can name several tournaments that have been held in this 
area this past season which offered divisions for girls and nothing for 
senior teams.  



Lisa

There's no more coming back this way
The path is overgrown and strewn with thorns
They've torn the life-blood from your naked eyes
Cast aside to be forlorn...

Funny, how it seems that all I've tried to do
Seemed to make no difference to you at all...
                                                     Sarah McLachlan

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From: Meredith Jaffe 
Subject: under-18 girls in women's hockey
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I voted recently to exclude a girls' team from a
women's tournament, which I believe may be the one
mentioned here.  Perhaps my reasons will help you
understand the possible position of the organizers.

My issue was not with the age of the girls, but with
the skill level.  I am accustomed to playing with
teenaged girls on my team, and will have two on my
team at the tournament.  However, these girls fit on
our team skill-wise.  There is no division in this
tournament for a team that won an A-level division. 
There is a C division and an A/B.  If there were an AA
division, I'd see no problem with it.  But everyone
wants to play in a division in which they are
competitive.  To enter a tournament knowing that you
have no chance because there is a AA/A team playing
will cause other teams to drop out, effectively
killing the tournament.  Why travel to play games that
you know you'll lose badly?

In addition, this tournament is sponsored by a beer
company.  The sponsor cannot be perceived as
supporting underage drinking, and therefore would pull
out of the tournament if a girls' team participates. 
If the tournament had girls' teams registered and then
barred them in order to take a sponsor who didn't want
them, I'd think it was a lousy move, but not when the
sponsor preceded the team.

I understand that it is disappointing to be excluded
from a tournament at your home rink, but tournament
organizers have the right to impose age restrictions. 
The senior women's league in which my team plays
allows a few underage players on each team, but
rightfully only a few.  Young girls develop at such a
fast rate, which is wonderful for them and for the
future of women's hockey.  However, they will crowd
older women out of the sport if allowed to take over
women's teams.  We need a place to play recreational
hockey.  You are entering hockey at a time when you
have opportunities that I could not have dreamed about
at 17, which was just eleven years ago for me.  Go to
girls' tournaments, play against other girls' teams,
and against women's teams at your level. I will watch
you and cheer you on. You are the future, the ones who
will make up the college teams in the next few years
and the ones who can make leagues like the NWHL
possible.  But as a woman past my prime in atheticism,
I implore you:  leave us recreational players with an
opportunity to compete against other teams at our
level.

Meredith Jaffe
Baltimore Blizzard Women's Ice Hockey Club

__________________________________________________
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To: email@hidden
From: Louise Mallory 
Subject: Re: Women's tournament 
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At 09:09 AM 7/23/2002 -0400, email@hidden wrote:This is a women's 
tournament for
>senior teams.  Girls teams are not invited to play in senior tournaments just
>as senior teams are not allowed to participate in girls tournaments.  This is
>not a new rule.  Personally, I've participated in tournament in other cities
>such as Pittsburgh, Toronto and Montreal and they have the same rules.


Is the tournament you're talking about sanctioned by USA Hockey?  If the 
tournaments are not sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies, the 
tournament organizers can make up whatever rules they want, and try to find 
teams and referees that will participate.  The tournament in Toronto must 
have been either an OWHA *Senior Recreational* (20 and over) tournament, or 
an unsanctioned tournament.  Those are the only options.  I don't know 
whether USA Hockey would permit organizers of a sanctioned tournament to 
make up their own category requirements.  I also don't know (and the 
tournament organizers may not know either) whether a tournament organizer 
in your jurisdiction has the right to turn away teams for other reasons.

Tournament organizers should be concerned about providing a good experience 
for all teams in the tournament.  It is possible that they may believe your 
team to be too good for the tournament.  Find out whether the tournament 
organizers' rules arise out of a concern for competitive balance, and 
address those concerns as well as you can.  (If they have reason to think 
your team might be too good for the tournament, offer to split up.  And let 
them know which good players aren't attending.)  Also, I know from my 
personal experience as both a 40-something recreational hockey player and a 
teenage hockey player that some young opponents are sometimes too 
competitive and intense, from the perspective of older recreational 
players.  Nothing bugs me more than a 17yo opponent who celebrates too much 
after scoring a goal on me, who complains about officiating, or who doesn't 
notice or doesn't care that her style of play is more rough or aggressive 
than the standard in the league.  I bring this up with reluctance, because 
I'm *not* trying to say that all 17yo are bad sports and all 45yo are 
uncompetitive wusses.  I know that is not true.  But the original poster 
should think hard (and maybe ask around) about whether any of her 
team-mates have made a bad reputation in the spring league or elsewhere.


Other suggestions for the original poster:  consider getting involved with 
tournament organization?  offer to help recruit enough teams for the 
tournament to include a Midget division next year?  don't play in the 
spring league if you think they don't treat you fairly?

Louise

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Subject: Re: women-in-hockey digest, Vol 2 #149 - Aston PA Tourney
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To Bridget K:  
      I play for the Mighty Moms women's ice hockey team in Bridgeport, CT.   
The youngest members of our team are in their twenties, but most are in the 
upper thirties, forties and beyond.  The tournaments we play in generally 
have a rule that states that no more than 2 players under the age of 20 can 
compete with the team.  If the tournament in Aston, PA is excluding younger 
players, it's probably to keep the competition relatively equal.  The age 
factor definitely has a big impact.  In most cases, teenagers would have an 
advantage over older players, presuming they would have more speed and 
quicker recovery time.  I think keeping separate age categories makes for 
better competition.