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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 06:12:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dave Cosio
Reply-To: Dave Cosio
Subject: Sexist Attitudes in Youth Hockey
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Yep they still exist and are stronger than ever.
While at a Haverhill Youth Hockey coaches meeting last week
Our AHAUS and Massachusetts Hockey rep asked we coaches
if we had any "tokens" (referring to girls) on our teams.
While I didn't say anything then the comment was pretty indicative
of how a bunch of men (yep I'm one) when they get in a room
put on our moron hats spew sexist BS.
My daughter is a bantam in the program. I coached her last
year when she was a Peewee. She is the only girl on the team
but she is adamant about not playing on a all girls team. I am
coaching my son's Peewee team this year, and I have a girl
on that as well. I find it very concerning that people who
are in power will talk a good equality game but don't back
it up when behind closed doors.
Here is my concern. Is this what happens at the Mass Hockey and USA
Hockey levels? This is the second time it has happened to me out
in the open. I can only imagine what goes on behind my back.
Should I be consulting a lawyer?
,,,
(o o)
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\\ \ David Cosio Sr.High Availability Support Engineer
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Reply-To:
From: "Greg Aldous"
To:
Subject: RE: Sexist Attitudes in Youth Hockey
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:12:53 -0700
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We just returned from Hockey Night in Boston where my daughter attended the
girls program. At the banquet in front of everyone - boys, girls, and
parents, the head of HNIB referred to the girls as "adding a kind of cute
thing to the male dominated program" and then went on to make a joke that
for the most part implied that in Russian you won't find cute girls playing
hockey - but you will find them here. All this from a man that paid $500
US in registration fees.
Something has to change or girls will not be returning in future years.
email@hidden
-----Original Message-----
From: email@hidden
[mailto:email@hidden]On Behalf Of Dave Cosio
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 3:12 AM
To: email@hidden
Subject: Sexist Attitudes in Youth Hockey
Yep they still exist and are stronger than ever.
While at a Haverhill Youth Hockey coaches meeting last week
Our AHAUS and Massachusetts Hockey rep asked we coaches
if we had any "tokens" (referring to girls) on our teams.
While I didn't say anything then the comment was pretty indicative
of how a bunch of men (yep I'm one) when they get in a room
put on our moron hats spew sexist BS.
My daughter is a bantam in the program. I coached her last
year when she was a Peewee. She is the only girl on the team
but she is adamant about not playing on a all girls team. I am
coaching my son's Peewee team this year, and I have a girl
on that as well. I find it very concerning that people who
are in power will talk a good equality game but don't back
it up when behind closed doors.
Here is my concern. Is this what happens at the Mass Hockey and USA
Hockey levels? This is the second time it has happened to me out
in the open. I can only imagine what goes on behind my back.
Should I be consulting a lawyer?
,,,
(o o)
================================oOO==(_)==OOo===============================
===
/\
\\ \ David Cosio Sr.High Availability Support Engineer
\ \\ / Sun Microsystems
/ \/ / / MailStop BUR4-205
/ / \//\ 4 Network Dr
\//\ / / Burlington, Massachusetts 01824
/ / /\ /
/ \\ \
\ \\ Internet: email@hidden
\/ Fax : 781-442-1604
Phone : 781-442-1058 (800-USA-4SUN)
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From: "Denise Smith"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: women-in-hockey digest, Vol 2 #173 - 8 msgs
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:49:20 -0230
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I sent an e-mail to the Little League organization, and was told that Krissy
Wendell was mentioned in the report on female Little Leaguers.
Denise
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:34:29 -0400
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Sexist Attitudes in Youth Hockey
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I am not a lawyer, (but there are enough in my family that I am familiar enough with certain aspects of the law to give a reasonably accurate and somewhat intelligent answer - we fight about stuff like this over dinner all the time!)
- but I do know that you cannot (unfortunately) sue people for being idiots. Unless you can prove that his comments caused you direct harm, you really cannot do much about it. If the hockey program in question is a privately funded organization, then they can selectively choose who they will and who they will not have in their organization (case in point - The Boy Scouts are blatantly open about not allowing homosexual members and/or leaders - were taken to court, and WON their case.)
Perhaps if people would immediatley speak up when they are offended by such comments, it would eventually put an end to it.
If you are talking about a school team (that is publicly funded by tax dollars), that is a different issue altogether.
Jill
"Only you can prevent hockey stick fires."
In a message dated Wed, 21 Aug 2002 5:12:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, Dave Cosio writes:
>Yep they still exist and are stronger than ever.
>
>While at a Haverhill Youth Hockey coaches meeting last week
>Our AHAUS and Massachusetts Hockey rep asked we coaches
>if we had any "tokens" (referring to girls) on our teams.
>While I didn't say anything then the comment was pretty indicative
>of how a bunch of men (yep I'm one) when they get in a room
>put on our moron hats spew sexist BS....
>This is the second time it has happened to me out
>in the open. I can only imagine what goes on behind my back.
>Should I be consulting a lawyer?
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:47:18 -0400
To: email@hidden
From: Louise Mallory
Subject: Re: Sexist Attitudes in Youth Hockey
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Note: please excuse me if this gets posted twice - I sent it from my wrong
address.
At 06:12 AM 8/21/2002 -0400, Dave Cosio wrote:
>Yep they still exist and are stronger than ever.
>
>While at a Haverhill Youth Hockey coaches meeting last week
>Our AHAUS and Massachusetts Hockey rep asked we coaches
>if we had any "tokens" (referring to girls) on our teams.
>While I didn't say anything then the comment was pretty indicative
>of how a bunch of men (yep I'm one) when they get in a room
>put on our moron hats spew sexist BS.
Maybe you weren't the only man in the room wincing quietly. If you start
speaking up when those comments get made, you might find more support than
you expect. It seems to be true that prejudiced people listen better to
people in their own group. As a male supporter of girl hockey players, you
could probably get them to listen to you a bit more than they would listen
to women. (When our teams were part of a mostly-male sports organization,
some of the leaders of that group would ignore what I was saying and
interrupt me, but when the other girls' hockey rep (a large male football
coach) made the same requests, they would sometimes agree. Go figure.)
If you don't feel comfortable yet speaking up in a public setting, then you
could sound out some of your friends afterwards "Did you hear what that
jerk said? I was so shocked ..." and see if you find some more quiet
support.
I find it very concerning that people who
>are in power will talk a good equality game but don't back
>it up when behind closed doors.
Yes, it is disturbing.
>Here is my concern. Is this what happens at the Mass Hockey and USA
>Hockey levels? This is the second time it has happened to me out
>in the open. I can only imagine what goes on behind my back.
>Should I be consulting a lawyer?
All I can say is, keep speaking up and staying involved. Especially if you
have some credibility with these guys, you can make a difference.
Louise
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:54:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dave Cosio
Reply-To: Dave Cosio
Subject: Re: Sexist Attitudes in Youth Hockey
To: email@hidden, email@hidden,
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> Maybe you weren't the only man in the room wincing quietly. If you start
> speaking up when those comments get made, you might find more support than
> you expect. It seems to be true that prejudiced people listen better to
> people in their own group. As a male supporter of girl hockey players, you
> could probably get them to listen to you a bit more than they would listen
> to women. (When our teams were part of a mostly-male sports organization,
> some of the leaders of that group would ignore what I was saying and
> interrupt me, but when the other girls' hockey rep (a large male football
> coach) made the same requests, they would sometimes agree. Go figure.)
I need to expand this a little. There was a wincing in the group. The President of
the organization said, " don't go there" I said, "Jesus ". The subject
was quicly dropped. I might add The President on a previous occasion made a very horrible
remark about women playing hockey. I sent a stronly worded letter to the Organizations
president and the person himself. There was an apology. However the sexism continues.
Given some of the examples that have been stated on this subject, my experiences pale in
comparason to that of others.
At this time I don't want to jepardize my daughters status with the bantam team. She is the
only girl on the team and if there is a issue I will have to deal with it then.
God this stinks.....
>
> If you don't feel comfortable yet speaking up in a public setting, then you
> could sound out some of your friends afterwards "Did you hear what that
> jerk said? I was so shocked ..." and see if you find some more quiet
> support.
Speaking in public is never a problem for me. I was just so shocked at the comment
coming from a man I respect. He also has a daughter himself which make it that
much more of a shock.
>
> I find it very concerning that people who
> >are in power will talk a good equality game but don't back
> >it up when behind closed doors.
>
> Yes, it is disturbing.
>
> >Here is my concern. Is this what happens at the Mass Hockey and USA
> >Hockey levels? This is the second time it has happened to me out
> >in the open. I can only imagine what goes on behind my back.
> >Should I be consulting a lawyer?
>
> All I can say is, keep speaking up and staying involved. Especially if you
> have some credibility with these guys, you can make a difference.
I'm already a Head Coach in this program. I have been for 8 years. To hear
girls refered to a tokens was a huge shock.
-Dave
>
> Louise
>
>
,,,
(o o)
================================oOO==(_)==OOo==================================
/\
\\ \ David Cosio Sr.High Availability Support Engineer
\ \\ / Sun Microsystems
/ \/ / / MailStop BUR4-205
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Message-ID: <011301c2491e$c3f11b40$588a06d1@chickwear>
From: "Chickwear Sport"
To:
Subject: Las Vegas?
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:26:39 -0400
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Does anyone have any info about a Women's tourney in Las Vegas? I believe it
may be in February, it was the buzz of the locker last night and thought I'd
inquire.
Thanking you in advance.
Cathi Thomas
www.chickwear.com
...the edge in women's hockey equipment
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:30:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Erin Malinowski
Subject: RE: Sexist Attitudes in Youth Hockey
To: email@hidden, email@hidden
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What sexism? I was just told last week that the boys
were used to us and sexism didn't exist anymore.
When I picked my jaw up off the floor, I kindly
explained that yes, there are still people who want
females out of the game. (I could tell this guy didn't
belive me. To him, girls belong in the game. That part
is good but he can't see that some of his fellow guys
don't agree.)
Erin
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Message-ID: <001501c2491f$ea7d28c0$c89aa918@jeannec>
From: "jeannec"
To:
References:
Subject: Re: Sexist Attitudes in Youth Hockey
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:34:53 -0400
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I wouldn't degrade to name-calling, else you'll turn it more to a bickering
issue among the adults and less about the issue at hand- which sounds like
equal opportunity and respect among your kids, regardless of gender. What
you describe sounds like a lack of social skills with a couple of your
peers, and perhaps downright sexism. Maintain a professional perspective
when/if you feel the issue needs to be addressed. Keep it about hockey, and
focus on the battle, not the war- which is ensuring that gender doesn't
preclude the girls from the same oportunities as the boys when on the ice,
regardless of what anyone's personal attitude is outside the rink. The
president's reaction sounds as if there's at least some sensitivity to this
issue.
I have never NOT run into this issue when playing co-ed sports, and the
severity of it all depends on the personal attitudes of the guys. But I'm
well into adulthood and can speak for myself, and either reap the rewards or
suffer the consequences of my own actions and words. So you're also on the
right track being sensitive to teh fact that your daughter can't do the
same, but may feel the fall out of anything you do.
Good luck- tell her to be tough and play hard!!!
Jeanne
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From: "Dallas Banshees"
To: email@hidden, email@hidden
Subject: Re: Las Vegas?
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:34:54 +0000
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The one they were probably talking about is sponsered by California Hockey
Productions. I've been several times at it is a real blast!!
For more info, the website is http://www.hockeytourney.com
>From: "Chickwear Sport"
>To:
>Subject: Las Vegas?
>Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:26:39 -0400
>
>Does anyone have any info about a Women's tourney in Las Vegas? I believe
>it
>may be in February, it was the buzz of the locker last night and thought
>I'd
>inquire.
>Thanking you in advance.
>Cathi Thomas
>www.chickwear.com
>...the edge in women's hockey equipment
>_______________________________________________
>women-in-hockey mailing list | email@hidden
>Help/Unsubscribe/Archives:
>http://www.plaidworks.com/mailman/listinfo/women-in-hockey
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:50:41 -0400
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From: Barbara Bartholomew
Subject: women coaching
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Some men don't want women coaching their kids either, or to have women on
their coaching staffs. I hit the glass ceiling after Squirt house. I'm
talking about assistant coaching, not head coaching. I've played for five
years, played on coached teams, attended camps, clinics and classes, have
USAH intermediate coaching credentials. Granted, I'm not a very good
player, but neither are many of the guys who coach. I've learned a lot
about the sport, love hockey and improving skills, and have something to
contribute on the bench. Fathers who never played hockey, know less than I
do about coaching and playing hockey, and are not credentialed, fill in as
assistant coaches, at the request of the head coaches. I've volunteered
every year since my son started playing. It was amusing, if a bit painful,
to observe the old-boy network at work up close.
Barbara Bartholomew, Ithaca Furies
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:53:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jill Depto
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To: email@hidden
Subject: Sexism in Adult Hockey Too
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I just thought I'd add my story to the pile, mainly
because I was completely outraged at what happened
to me and haven't really had anyone to share it with...
My company sponsors 2 hockey teams in a local
"adult" league. My first year at my company, I played
on one of those teams. Of course, I was the only
female on my company's teams and also the only
female in the entire league. I was in the middle of
the pack somewhere, ability wise. My team won the
league championship that year, WITH me playing every
game.
The next year, my company expanded their program to
3 teams. I was put on a team, paid my $$, and went to
my first game. I was one of the best players on the
ice in that game... After the game the rink manager
said to me "What are you doing here? This is an
over-40 league!! These guys are complaining about you,
you're too fast for them, they don't want you out here!"
Imagine my surprise! No one from my company told me
I had been placed on the over-40/beginner team. I am
26 (I was 25 then). No one else on my team was below
the age of 35....and the 35-40 year olds on the team were
beginners. I have played the sport religiously since
I was 16.
I quit that night... The people who placed me on
that team had no explanation of why I was placed on
that team...absolutely no explanation. I thought
of going to HR (since company money pays for
this league) but I decided that this was a battle
I could not win...
I am very happy now playing in the 35-team adult women's
league here in Mass...
-Jill
P.S. On an anti-sexism note, the Massachusetts
hockey coach of the year this past year was a female
coach of a women's team...
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:01:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dave Cosio
Reply-To: Dave Cosio
Subject: Re: Sexist Attitudes in Youth Hockey
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I want to say thanks to all for your responses. I have maintained a professional
attitude at this time and will continue to do so. I have only commented
on this list because it is a place where your experiences are greater than mine.
Fortunately Amy (our 13 yr old Bantam) is a very good player. She has a good
attitude and I have shielded her from this sort of thing. She does however
know it exists yet it hasn't shaken her belief that she can go far.
I also want to add I am keeping an open mind. Hopefully those attitudes will
change. I can't imagine what the 2 girls that were on my Peewee team must
have had to endure in the mid 70's. They were great players.
Anyway I feel bad for those folks that take this kind of sexist attitude. They
show all the time how closed minded they are.
,,,
(o o)
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From: "Dan Guard"
To: "Chickwear Sport" ,
References: <011301c2491e$c3f11b40$588a06d1@chickwear>
Subject: Re: Las Vegas?
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:16:51 -0700
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September 19-22, USA Hockey Inline Cup (Adult Nationals)...it ain't ice, but
it is a real fun tournament...fully fifteen of the women on the Canadian and
US national sides at the recent FIRS Women's Inline Worlds were on
club/corporate sponsored teams at this tourney last year, along with the rec
and novice players from all over the country...
-Dan, (Over-40 Polar Bears, gunning for a national title this year) and
Caitlin (new, Girls 17's Polar Bears, playing at the USAHIL Cup next year,
2003) in El Paso, Texas...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chickwear Sport"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 7:26 AM
Subject: Las Vegas?
> Does anyone have any info about a Women's tourney in Las Vegas? I believe
it
> may be in February, it was the buzz of the locker last night and thought
I'd
> inquire.
> Thanking you in advance.
> Cathi Thomas
> www.chickwear.com
> ...the edge in women's hockey equipment
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:37:00 -0400
To: email@hidden
From: Jennifer CG Nelson
Subject: krissy in LLWS
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Krissy Wendell is mentioned in this article about the Little League
World Series
http://newsday.com/news/printedition/ny-llgirl202831242aug20.story?col
l=ny-news-print
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From: "Dan Guard"
To:
References:
<001501c2491f$ea7d28c0$c89aa918@jeannec>
Subject: Regarding Sexist Attitudes in Hockey
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:49:25 -0700
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all:
I want to second and further the inclinations of those that are fighting the
good fight, in a hundred different ways, on this one...
In summary, gender bias presently exists at all levels of play, coaching,
parenting, and administrating. This will continue as long as parents don't
know, or don't care to correct the imprinting of behaviors that are
perpetuated in youth players.
Every time your parents say nothing at all to you about high fiving all your
male linemates, when it was the girl who got to the puck, turned it, and
sent you the pass that you buried in the net, then the stupidity will
continue...
Each time a father replies to his son's scoffing about having to play vs. an
all girls' team in Regionals, "You better take those girls seriously, they
can skate, and you will get your butt handed to you if you don't," then the
stupidity is lessened just that little bit...
Everybody involved with this internet group has dozens more stories about
the stupidities than I do. Everybody absolutely must keep on doing all the
right things, bring the stupidity to the light of day, call it out, do not
let it hide in the darkness of enclave meetings and furtive whisperings...
Keep up the good work, everybody..
-Dan, Caitlin, and all the Polar Bears (big and little, male and female) in
El Paso Texas
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From: "Denise Smith"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Sexist attitudes in Youth Sports
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:44:50 -0230
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Trust me they still exist. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff that I
read on the other message boards about women playing, coaching, being hockey
broadcasters, etc. Ridiculous!
If that program that Dave is talking about is part of USA Hockey I think I
would definately file a complaint with them.
Denise
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:25:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jennifer Philion
Subject: Re: sexism
To: email@hidden
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I work in journalism. Right now I'm an online editor
who deals with all aspects of news, but my heart and
most of my journalism background is in sports. Not
even counting the crap I've experienced as a female
sports journalist, just the sexist attitudes I've seen
while covering sports has astounded me. There was one
time that sticks in my mind, when I really had to say
something.
I had been covering a JV boys basketball game. (My
paper was a small start-up weekly that wanted to cover
the "sports the others don't cover.") JV games are,
generally, sloppy and slow -- not played at the height
of athletic prowess. Which is fine.
There was a woman official in the game. As far as I
could tell, she did just as fine a job officiating as
her male partner.
But leaving the gym, I was ahead of a family where the
father of a boy on the losing team was complaining
bitterly, and most of his complaints centered on how
"that stupid woman" couldn't make a single call right
because she "couldn't keep up with the game."
I had my notebook put away so he couldn't tell I was a
reporter, so I turned around and said, "What? Are you
saying a woman's eyes are too slow to keep up with the
blinding speed of a JV game? Do you realize how stupid
you sound? The officials called a fair game. Deal with
it." Then I walked away. He couldn't even come up with
a response.
jen in utah
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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:28:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jen Hannum
Subject: Re: Sexism in Adult Hockey Too
To: email@hidden
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My first experience in hockey was joining an adult roller hockey team. Since I was new, I asked to just be placed on a team. Each captain was asked if they wanted a woman on their team. Most said no, so I was placed on the team that said yes. Two teams in the league had 5 women on each, the rest of the teams had none.
When I walked up to get my jersey on try out day, I heard some guy say "Oh, man, you got all the hot chicks on your team". Same day, when they were collecting jerseys we were asked to take off our jerseys and pile them up in a corner, one of the league guys offered to let me go take it off in the bathroom (which wasn't necessary since I was wearing a t-shirt under it), after I said no, he said "why do you want to play hockey anyway?". I said "Basically, I wasn't allowed to do this as a little girl and now that I'm a woman I can do whatever the hell I want." and walked away. He looked generally confused.
Then in my next game I totally clobbered some guy and fell in love with playing the sport. :)
Sexist idiots exist everywhere. The only way to combat it is stand up and call them on it. Yes, you will be labelled a bitch and unreasonable. But until you make someone uncomfortable (as they did to you) they won't even think about what they're saying.
Fight the good fight!
Jen
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Unfortunately complaints do not matter at Hockey Night In Boston. We got the
same attitude when we went there the first year girls were invited. We
thought because it was the first year maybe they would come to understand in
time. Guess Not!
Same attitude applies to Chicago Showcase, although not as bad. They raffled
off cute little teddy bears for the girls.
I'm interested to know if there were any scouts there for the girls? Are the
colleges showing up?
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From: "NAUMIS,DEBBIE (HP-Canada,ex1)"
To: Jen Hannum ,
email@hidden
Subject: RE: Sexism in Hockey
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:00:21 -0400
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You're right on!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: Jen Hannum [mailto:email@hidden]
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 3:29 PM
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Sexism in Adult Hockey Too
My first experience in hockey was joining an adult roller hockey team.
Since I was new, I asked to just be placed on a team. Each captain was
asked if they wanted a woman on their team. Most said no, so I was placed
on the team that said yes. Two teams in the league had 5 women on each, the
rest of the teams had none.
When I walked up to get my jersey on try out day, I heard some guy say "Oh,
man, you got all the hot chicks on your team". Same day, when they were
collecting jerseys we were asked to take off our jerseys and pile them up in
a corner, one of the league guys offered to let me go take it off in the
bathroom (which wasn't necessary since I was wearing a t-shirt under it),
after I said no, he said "why do you want to play hockey anyway?". I said
"Basically, I wasn't allowed to do this as a little girl and now that I'm a
woman I can do whatever the hell I want." and walked away. He looked
generally confused.
Then in my next game I totally clobbered some guy and fell in love with
playing the sport. :)
Sexist idiots exist everywhere. The only way to combat it is stand up and
call them on it. Yes, you will be labelled a bitch and unreasonable. But
until you make someone uncomfortable (as they did to you) they won't even
think about what they're saying.
Fight the good fight!
Jen
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From: "Denise Smith"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Mleczko, DeCosta, and Tueting
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:57:22 -0230
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Have AJ Mleczko, Sara DeCosta, and Sarah Tueting retired?
Denise
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