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Subject: Women-in-Hockey Digest V1 #474
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Women-in-Hockey Digest Wednesday, August 11 1999 Volume 01 : Number 474
In this issue:
Re: Helmet Painting, a little knowledge...
*girls playin' with the boys* thread...
Re: *girls playin' with the boys* thread...
Re: *girls playin' with the boys* thread...
Re: *girls playin' with the boys* thread...
Girls playing with boys
Re: Girls playing with boys
Re: Girls playing with boys
Re: *girls playin' with the boys* thread...
Re: *girls playin' with the boys* thread...
Re: Girls playing on boy's high school team
Re: *girls playin' with the boys* thread...
FW: uk-womens-icehockey
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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 15:18:56 -0400
From: Debbie Minden
Subject: Re: Helmet Painting, a little knowledge...
>Hey Donald, when you want to start the "girls playing on a boy's high school
>team" thread, I'll be happy to respond with my 2c.
Let's start this now. Our middle school is part of a new league, and the
only girl will be my daughter. She has played with the boys since she was
a Mite. She has played with a girls team for the last two years when she
has had the time. She will be playing Bantam starting this fall. This
summer she made the district select clinic. She is an experienced play
with a lot of skill. I have heard that high school hockey is a licence to
maim and kill, and figure that middle school would be similar. She has to
cut back someplace, and considering the reputation of school vs. club
hockey, I figure it should be there. Any comments?
Debbie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:21:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
Subject: *girls playin' with the boys* thread...
*grin* I thought we needed a seperate subject line.
Being a girl who attempts to play with the guys (its not that they don't accept me, most of them do, i'm just really inexperianced and kinda clumsy.) this is always a topic of discussion for me.
***Let the games begin***
- --Jessie
" Here on the Red Wings, we have people from all cultures. We have Swedes, we have Canadians, we have Americans, we have Russians... and we all get along like family. "Go away Shanahan, you freak!" That means Shanahan is a good and great man. I love you too, my brother!"
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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:52:23 -0700
From: Swanson
Subject: Re: *girls playin' with the boys* thread...
My opinion is that if the player is enjoying skating with the guys, go for it! I feel that my skill level has been greatly improved by playing in boy's/men's house leagues over the years. But while I enjoy the challenge of high caliber play with guys, there is really nothing like the camaraderie of playing on an all
girl's/women's team.
One main concern is risk of injury; speaking from experience, (my sister broke her leg in a men's house league game earlier this year) the work it takes to come back from a bad injury and the lost playing time are definitely considerations. A smaller sized player would probably want to think seriously about it before
playing, especially in a full-checking league.
Annie #17
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:19:52 EDT
From: email@hidden
Subject: Re: *girls playin' with the boys* thread...
<< Being a girl who attempts to play with the guys (its not that they don't
accept me, most of them do, I'm just really inexperienced and kinda clumsy.)
this is always a topic of discussion for me. >>
I can relate to this! Especially the inexperienced and not very good part! :)
Not to mention that I am 15-20 years older than most of the players.
One of the things I have learned to do is be at the end of the bench and let
the guys all play first. I have always said this was to "let them burn off
some testosterone first". I was kind of joking. BUT In the July 99 issue of
Life magazine the cover article is called Boy? Girl? What's the difference?
How hormones determine your behavior
and here is a quote from it:
Higher testosterone levels are also responsible for another characteristic:
competitiveness. In fact, testosterone is almost predictable in this regard.
It shoots up before a competition: that's been measured in everything from
chess matches to soccer games to courtroom battles to brawls. It stays up if
you win, drops if you lose. It's role, scientists think, is to get you up
and running and right on the competitive edge.
I do not mean to disparage the competitiveness of females AT ALL, though not
particularly competitive myself I admire the go-for-it-ness of women's teams
and athletes. (as a pre-title IX woman, I think it was programmed out of me,
but that again is another thread of conversation) I just think it is
important to be realistic in the differences in boys and girls, and try to
adapt one's team strategy to account for it. Just like women have to take
steps to cope with hormonal aspects their own biology, guys need to learn to
understand theirs also.
Somehow we need to find a balance in playing on coed teams. All the women I
play with, including my two daughters, struggle between two issues with guys.
Some guys play more aggressively against them, like it's an affront to their
masculinity to play against a female. Others back off and play less
aggressively towards females, in a chivalrous manner. Both responses are
frustrating. To be fair I have to say that there are also guys who just play
everyone the same.
So what is recommended by you all..... to blend, and look as genderless as
possible? That can happen under all that gear sometimes. To be aggressive
back?
How do you deal with it? What is the right way?
looking forward to more discussion on this!
laura
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 15:30:14 -0700
From: email@hidden (Megan Bryant)
Subject: Re: *girls playin' with the boys* thread...
>>So what is recommended by you all..... to blend, and look as genderless as
>>possible? That can happen under all that gear sometimes. To be aggressive
>>back? How do you deal with it?
>>What is the right way?
There is no RIGHT way.
If you are agressive by nature then you will be agressive on the ice.
If you are more passive, that's what will come out in competition.
However, "waiting" to let the males go first, is definately not what I do.
I am a player on the team just like the rest.
I am placed on a line based on my ABILITY.
A good coach will set the lines based on skill & strategy rather than gender.
Yes, males and females are different, but Cammi Granato is just as agressive
as Jarimar Jagr.
- --
Megan Bryant
Rhythm & Hues
310 448 7551
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:42:24 EDT
From: email@hidden
Subject: Girls playing with boys
Hi gang,
In response to earlier comment about how boys or men play in a coed
environment, whether they are more aggressive or less agressive around
females, I would like to add my thoughts to it.
My wife and I play coed hockey quite a bit and I must say that I play
different in coed situations. I will generally back-off the players of
less skill whether they be a man or woman. I also tend to not skate as fast
around woman. My main reason for doing that is I have a substantial mass
advantage (or disadvantage :-)) and if I happened to hit someone at full
speed, they would probably lose. I do the same around younger boys as well
for the same reason. One other comment I will make is that there seems to be
a difference in perception from players who have grown-up playing full
checking hockey and those that did not. Again this does not seem to be
entirely related to sex. Many of the men that I play with did not play
growing up and have never played with checking as part of the game. These
players seem to have very heightened sensitivities in relation to contact as
part of the play.
My wife and I will play in the same coed pick-up game and she will feel one
of the opposition is picking on her, when I see him playing the same style
against everyone. I think in many cases it is a matter of perspective. I am
not sure what my point was, but I just felt like contributing...
Tom Scanlon
Mpls, MN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:08:27 EDT
From: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Girls playing with boys
I started out playing roller hockey in an outdoor league with mostly guys
(me and one other girl). The guys on my team seemed a little annoyed with me,
and yelled a lot if I messed up. But thats pretty easy to ignore. Opponents,
didn't really target me, but its a really strict league, and most everything
was called anyways. The next year, I was the only girl in the league. My
teammates were pretty cool about it, and the opponents were pretty fair.
There were a couple guys that would single me out, usually the ones shorter
than me, so they didn't really have much of an effect.
When I started indoor roller hockey, I was on a team with another girl.
I'm pretty quite anyways, but the guys on that team seemed pretty distant.
After we went 1-9-0 in a season, 4 of them left and started another team, so
they didn't have to be with the 2 girls. (Their team ended up last that
season, our team won the championship).
But I think I've had a lot more fun in the womens ice hockey league. The
teams seem a lot more together, and you don't get yelled at everytime you
leave the puck behind or make a bad pass, or some other bonehead move.
As for aggressiveness...everybody (my parents, coaches, other kids
parents), since I've started playing hockey, have told me that I needed to be
more aggresive. Which I always thought was kinda lame, that it wasn't the way
I wanted to play or something along those lines. But this last season was
co-ed ice hockey (only 3 or so guys on a team) and I think I'm finally
picking up on the concept of being aggressive. So now that I realize the
effects of being aggresive, I would recommend being aggressive back,
otherwise some of them will just keep pushing you around. In a game, an
oppenent was hanging out in front of our net, kinda pushing me around, when
the puck went behind the net, I checked her into the boards, and she never
bothered me again. (Although, its probably not that easy in most cases)
For the injuries, I think I've gotten hurt the same amount of times in
male-dominated leagues as in female-dominated leagues. Although, 2 weeks ago
I waited too long to get my skates sharpened, and slid knee first into the
boards, which was painful. (although the other team got a penalty for it, but
I never felt a stick or anything, so I dunno what happened) So I think I'm
more dangerous to myself than anybody, male or female, is.
My brother plays in a 13-14 year old roller hockey league, and there are
5 girls. They all can pretty much hold their own, and I've seen them go after
the guys more often than the guys go after them.
So basically, I would say playing with the guys is a lot about attitude
or confidence. If you think that they're better, and its their game, well
then you've already lost, and the guys will continue to ignore you
(teammates) or go after you (opponents).
Oh, and to the guy who felt he had no point, I think most of us don't
really have one (thats not a bad thing), we just go with whereever the topic
goes. I usually have to go back and delete 10 sentences, because they go
totally off the subject. (exactly like this paragraph) So anyways, I'll stop
now.
Jennie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:29:52 EDT
From: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Girls playing with boys
Wow! Only four hours since this thread started and we have already had a
lively discussion. Very good! For all the comments so far I have to say...I
agree.
keep going now....I find it very stimulating.
Where I live playing with the guys is the only option. Until recently we
would have to gather every woman and girl that played all year and we could
get one team together.
Since they started a beginner night there are more women,as well as an older
group, and it is a more relaxed drop-in game. I can't decide if it's because
everyone is learning together or if the women help it be less intense, more
comraderly. I think it's the beginner thing, not a gender thing.
But for myself I love hearing stories from those of you who live in a larger
hockey playing world where you can choose levels of skill and/or gender
segregated leagues. Please keep talking!
laura
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:47:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: "J.E. Hamer"
Subject: Re: *girls playin' with the boys* thread...
Personally, I don't find playing with the men a problem. Yes, I have
taken a few hits, but that comes with the sport. I think that a team is
fun as long as everybody is out there trying to have fun. Some people,
both men and women, take it too seriously and treat a house league as if
it's the pros and his/her life depended on the outcome.
My question is what do you do about locker rooms? The ice rink that I
spend the most time at only has four locker rooms, which are in constant
use. Either the women change in the bathroom or change in the same room
as the guys. This isn't too much of a problem because the locker rooms
don't contain showers and nobody get completely naked. However, the rink
where I play stick and puck, there are two locker rooms with showers in
each of them. The guys usually get there first and so I get stuck
changing in the hall. I compensate for this by wear spandex and a t-shirt
under my equipment. I'm just wondering if anybody has any comments about
this.
One more thing, I need to comment on the idea of "waiting at the end
of the bench until all the guys get to play." To me, this would mean
giving up valuable ice time. Leagues are so expensive nowadays that I
wouldn't dream of sitting out a shift if I didn't have to.
Just my $.02.
J.E.
________________________________________
J.E. Hamer
Department of Biostatistics
University of North Carolina
(w)919-966-6094
(h)919-933-1448
http://jhamer.homepage.com
("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(il),-'' (li),' ((!.-'
GO STATE! BEAT WILDCATS!
JOE PATERNO GOES FOR 308!
________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:10:56 -0400
From: Amy Antonucci
Subject: Re: *girls playin' with the boys* thread...
At 08:47 AM 8/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
>My question is what do you do about locker rooms? The ice rink that I
>spend the most time at only has four locker rooms, which are in constant
>use. Either the women change in the bathroom or change in the same room
>as the guys. This isn't too much of a problem because the locker rooms
>don't contain showers and nobody get completely naked. However, the rink
>where I play stick and puck, there are two locker rooms with showers in
>each of them. The guys usually get there first and so I get stuck
>changing in the hall. I compensate for this by wear spandex and a t-shirt
>under my equipment. I'm just wondering if anybody has any comments about
>this.
>
My home rink is like that too..4 lockers always in use. At first I and
another woman would change in the ref's room..the rink employees reffed the
games, and they didn't need to change..they just put a refs shirt on over
what they were wearing. After a while, the guys invited us in the locker
room, and if anyone wanted to take a shower he or she would simply wait
until they were in the shower part before getting completely naked.
(Although I don't think anyone did shower..I know I just waited until I got
home..those locker room showers are kind of scary :) I usually wear
something under my equipment anyway, even now that I play on a women's team.
> One more thing, I need to comment on the idea of "waiting at the end
>of the bench until all the guys get to play." To me, this would mean
>giving up valuable ice time. Leagues are so expensive nowadays that I
>wouldn't dream of sitting out a shift if I didn't have to.
No way in hell would I wait until all the guys "got to play" If I happened
to be on the last shift, that's fine, but I'm not going to purposefully put
myself on the last shift because I'm a woman. (Anyway now I've become a
goalie, so I don't have to worry about shifts anymore :)
>
>Just my $.02.
>
>J.E.
Mine too.
Amy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:44:23 EDT
From: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Girls playing on boy's high school team
In a message dated 8/10/99 12:33:30 PM Central Daylight Time,
email@hidden writes:
<<
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:26:01 -0400
From: "Ron Goldey"
Subject: Re: Helmet Painting, a little knowledge...
Hey Donald, when you want to start the "girls playing on a boy's high school
team" thread, I'll be happy to respond with my 2c.
Ron Goldey
>>
I'm the mother of a 12 yr. old girl who's played 8 yrs. on boy's teams and I
would be interested to hear Donald's and your 2c worth on "girls playing on
boy's high school teams". The older she gets, the more concerned I am
becoming.
Debbie Antognoli #49's Mom
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 06:50:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jenn Nejedlo
Subject: Re: *girls playin' with the boys* thread...
>>My question is what do you do about locker rooms?
We have a coed team here and after a few months of changing in
separate locker rooms (the team was mostly women, so the men changed
with the other team or in the restroom or with the refs), we just
gave up and all changed together. We are all adults and understand
the issue of privacy...but some of the guys will shower - even when
the shower is open to the locker room and most of the team is still
in there (they just keep their backs to the room and take their towel
with them). It's a matter of how well your team gets along. We all
like eachother quite well, so there's a lot of respect there, but if
you're new to a team, then a situation like this may not happen.
Otherwise, change in the restroom or the refs room. I've done that
many times. You could also ask your teammates to wear something under
their equipment so you can change with them. Or get half dressed and
finish in the hallway.
A lot of rinks around here (Milwaukee) are starting to include small
women's locker rooms for the girls and women who play on men's teams.
>>...the idea of "waiting at the end of the bench until all the guys
get to play"...
This is an assinine concept. Please do not do this because if you do,
anytime these men play with a woman or women, they will think that
she is going to wait to take her turn. Step up and take your turn
like everyone else.
_________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:46:20 -0700
From: "Phil & Debbie Cottrell"
Subject: FW: uk-womens-icehockey
From the UK Hockey Mailing List:
- -----Original Message-----
From: email@hidden
[mailto:email@hidden] On Behalf Of Malcolm Preen
Sent: August 11, 1999 7:05 AM
To: UK-Hockey
Subject: uk-womens-icehockey
For your information...
I've just created a mailing list for discussing / sharing results etc
etc for the womens game in the UK.
To subscribe to the mailing list:
WWW
got to http://www.onelist.com , register, search for
uk-womens-icehockey, and signup..
e-mail
send a single message to
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With the WWW interface you can change your subscription to receive a
digest (a days worth of messages in a single message) or normal mode.
By e-mail,
email@hidden or
email@hidden
Thanks for your time...
Malcolm
- --
Malcolm (recent 1-4-0 sav%76.47 GAA 9.15 - career 30-30-1 84.87% 6.66)
Goaltending is 90% mental, the other 10% is in your head (ICQ#8195978)
Hockey Results & Tables: http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~sonic/hockey.html
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End of Women-in-Hockey Digest V1 #474
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