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Subject: Women-in-Hockey Digest V1 #240
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Women-in-Hockey Digest Thursday, July 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 240
In this issue:
Women in Coaching
Re: English teams
USA Hockey Women's Registration 1997-98
Re: reverse discrimination, realism
Re: English teams
Re: reverse discrimination, realism
Re: Coaching
Re: reverse discrimination, realism
Re: reverse discrimination, realism
Re: reverse discrimination, realism
??
Re: reverse discrimination, realism
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Date: 1 Jul 1998 13:36:20 U
From: "Olson, Lynn"
Subject: Women in Coaching
Women who coach at the collegiate level in most instances certainly are not doing it for the money. Unfortunately most of them also have to work another coaching or administrative job at the college to make ends meet. That may be part of the reason why women don't want to work in the coaching field. They can make better money working in the real world. The University of Minnesota has set a precedent now by paying the women's hockey coach a credible salary. I remember listening to many male coaches at the eastern colleges who coached women's collegiate hockey teams stating that you either had to have a terrific passion for the sport to coach it, and/or hoped for the school to offer you a teaching or administrative position in order to make a living.
Being an amateur coach is a rewarding opportunity for both men and women. It is unfortunate that society has given the aura that hockey is a man's game and men should coach it. I am with all the others on this list who believe that the job should go to the most qualified person, male or female. But, you must learn to give an opportunity to the females out there so that they can become the most qualified individual. That doesn't mean they should start out as head coach, but be an assistant for a while and learn the job from a mentor. We can all learn from each other in the coaching field and advance as time goes on. There are numerous women who have now been through the amateur, high school and college ranks themselves who are deserving of head coaching jobs.
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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:31:54 -0700
From: email@hidden (Megan Bryant)
Subject: Re: English teams
>>I was under the impression that these teams were sort of semi-professional.
>>I'm not sure they'd have room for drop-in players.
>>Are you sure you want to haul you gear all the way over there?? :)
>>--Michele
I am not sure what level the teams I listed on my web page, are at but...
It's a good place to start. If they don't allow drop in, less skilled players,
they may know of some other clubs or stick-times available.
Is it worth hauling your gear over there?
You can only answer that as an individual but my experience has been that
skating in a different country or even different region of your own country
can be a rewarding experience. You may learn new drills and new terms. And,
on occasion, you can make lasting friendships.
(I am inquiring of the level of teams that I listed on my page.)
http://www.rhythm.com/~oblio/europe.html
- --
Megan Bryant
Rhythm & Hues
310 448 7551
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Date: 1 Jul 1998 13:42:57 U
From: "Olson, Lynn"
Subject: USA Hockey Women's Registration 1997-98
USA Hockey has issued their registration numbers for the 1997-98 season. There was a total of 27,273 amateur players registered this season. The breakdown was Senior 4,774, 19 & Under 3,101, 15 & Under 5,031, 12 & Under 5,912, 9 & Under
8,455. For comparison, there were 6,336 females registered in 1990-91.
The top five states were Minnesota 5,568; Massachusetts 3,712; New York 2,747; Michigan 2,512; and Wisconsin 1,562.
Please remember that numerous high school and college teams are not included in these numbers because they do not register with USA Hockey.
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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:48:18 -0400
From: Morris Winchevsky Centre
Subject: Re: reverse discrimination, realism
First of all.... Right on Don Wright! I couldn't have said it better myself.
Second, why is it that many of you are assuming that when a woman is chosen
as a coach that it is an automatic step down? Even if she is replacing a
man, that doesn't mean the team will suffer. That's just stone age
thinking! I highly doubt that they are just choosing these women off the
streets because they have the right anatomy. It's just rediculous. If the
women are given a slight edge, then great, finally, we deserve it.
Happy Canada Day!
Elissa Hermolin, #33 Coyotes
United Jewish People's Order or Morris Winchevsky School
585 Cranbrooke Ave., North York, Ontario, Canada M6A 2X9
Phone: (416) 789-5502, Fax: (416) 789-5981, E-mail: email@hidden
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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michele D Ryan
Subject: Re: English teams
On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Megan Bryant wrote:
> I am not sure what level the teams I listed on my web page, are at but...
>
> It's a good place to start. If they don't allow drop in, less skilled players,
> they may know of some other clubs or stick-times available.
Yes, but most of those teams also aren't in London. If you want to find out
what is going in in London, "Time Out" is the place to look. You can
find the magazine in the states at larger book stores in big cities.
I'll see if I can dig up an old copy. The groups listed there are also
much more likely to be recreational-level teams/groups.
> Is it worth hauling your gear over there?
>
> You can only answer that as an individual but my experience has been that
> skating in a different country or even different region of your own country
> can be a rewarding experience. You may learn new drills and new terms. And,
> on occasion, you can make lasting friendships.
Oh, it would certainly be fun. And if the extra luggage isn't a problem
(either on the flight or hauling it around once you're there), then it's
certainly worth considering. But international flights have different
weight & baggage restrictions (and intra-European flights can be very
restrictive), so you should keep that in mind when deciding what to do.
I guess I just had trouble imagining myself hauling my regular luggage
AND my hockey stuff into London and back! If your company will pay for a
taxi, though, I guess it wouldn't be too hard.
- --Michele
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Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:13:23 -0400
From: Debbie Minden
Subject: Re: reverse discrimination, realism
>Happy Canada Day!
And Happy Canada Day to you Elissa!
Back in the deep dark 60's and 70's, the Canadian government had the
nerve to make immigration difficult for US academics who were looking
for university teaching jobs in Canada. Canadian universities actually had
to hire Canadian trained academics to teach in their institutions. The
original post about gender inequity in hockey coaching came from a Canadian
university. In the back of my mind, while reading all the sensibly responses,
pro and con, has been the original question that is based in Canadian fair
play.
Despite the considerable amout of politics that surrounds who gets to coach,
I think in this case, there is that old Canadian desire to make sure that
everyone
gets an even break, and nobody goes away too unhappy or too angry.
My kids have had male coaches and female coaches, and it is not necessarily
the
best coach technically who is the best coach. It is the humane, caring person
who is willing to go the distance and teach kids the moral and social lessons
of a sport. Most of our children won't make it to the majors, but they will
have to be spouses, employees, friends, and members of a community. I'll
put my money on a coach who listens and is fair to a fault before anyone
else.
Debbie
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Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 07:41:01 -0400
From: "Cindy Goodman"
Subject: Re: Coaching
Yeah they should start as assisstants and pay their dues, you're right. But that is exactly the point. Women, until now, on the whole, have not been given the right to do just that based on their gendre. Your examples of discrimination siting, being sat on the bench and not making a team based on ability are a far cry from the type of discrimination we are discussing here. We have probably all got stories of not getting to play for this reason or that. That is a an unfortunate part of competitive sports and will always happen. However, discrimination based soley on gendre is quite a different story. We are'nt even getting to "try out". Have you been told you can't coach because you're a man? And while we are on the subject all of these writings by the men on this list have the same tone. It is just assumed that hiring a women means "bad coaching" at least that is how it is perceived. There are some "bad" women coaches but there are some awful male coaches too.
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Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 07:45:58 -0400
From: "Cindy Goodman"
Subject: Re: reverse discrimination, realism
What a breath of fresh air you are. At last a man on this list that understands. Thank you for your insightful posting.
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Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:43:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian John Rodgers
Subject: Re: reverse discrimination, realism
I think to a great degree all men on this list understand, or at
the very least, are making an attempt to understand...why else would the
be on this list?
I do not like the concept of reverse discrimination,
discrimination is just that....discrimination, it is all bad no matter
what form it takes no matter to whom it is directed.
The point I have been trying to make, and I may not have made it
clearly, is that in certain instances the appointment of women coaches at
times is still a form of discrimination, as paradoxical as that may seem.
As opposed to making decisions that are truly in the best interest to the
sport on the larger playing field, at times appointing women coaches is
just to pay lip service to the true ideas of gender equality not as a true
means of empowering women. Rather they become stop gap measures to in an
attempt to keep what could be a problem quiet.
I have no doubt that there are many qualified women coaches out
there that should indeed be coaching females, this is the ideal situation.
But as one lister mentioned, there is no attraction to these coaching
posts as they are not lucrative. This should be changed.
I feel strongly that women deserve the jobs, but hope they get
them for the right reasons, because they are qualified and dedicated. I
just hope those choosing the people for these coaching positions really
wants people that are qualified and dedicated, not just thinking..."give
the job to a woman, any woman, we can avoid problems and keep 'em happy
and quiet". I know from personal experience that the institution I worked
for lost one of the best minds in hockey, a woman, because they were to
cheap to pay her, and they did not like the inequality of their programs
brought out into the harsh public light. They could have had the best
person for the job, but were too cheap to pay for her.
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Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 09:09:44 -0400
From: "Cindy Goodman"
Subject: Re: reverse discrimination, realism
Okay I will give you that most men understand the concept of discrimination in what ever form it takes. However, I don't for a minute believe you could possibly have any understanding about the level and the depth that this discrimination exists for women. I agree women should not be hired simply because they are a woman. But there are many qualified women who are overlooked based on their sex. Period. You don't even get to show your qualifications or expertise. I personally know of at least 10 women who could coach or assist with a top level team but will not be hired. Also, it's true there are very qualified women out there that won't even apply for the job because it puts too much strain on their own lives, trying to hold down a full time job and put in the amount of time an elite level team requires. The two assistants recently appointed to Team Canada are two very good examples of a total committment to the women's game. Ken Dufton has spent years coaching women's hockey at the top level in Ontario. Karen Hughes has devoted an enormous amount of time to playing and coaching. In the case of Hughes, she was hired by U of T succeeding long time coach Dave McMaster. U of T gave Karen a chance to coach an elite level, high profile University team. Yes she paid her dues by playing first then assisting but they gave her the chance and that is all any of us are asking for.
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Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:10:38 -0400
From: "Cindy Goodman"
Subject: ??
Where are you? My first e mail came back saying you didn't exist.
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Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:26:31 +0000
From: email@hidden (DAVE BAKER)
Subject: Re: reverse discrimination, realism
Cindy Goodman wrote:
> The two assistants recently
> appointed to Team Canada are two very good examples of a total
> committment to the women's game. Ken Dufton has spent years
> coaching women's hockey ! at the top level in Ontario. Karen Hughes
> has devoted an enormous amount of time to playing and coaching. In
> the case of Hughes, she was hired by U of T succeeding long time
> coach Dave McMaster. U o T gave Karen a chance to coach an elite
> level, high profile University team. Yes she paid her dues by
> playing first then assisting but they gave her the chance and that
> is all any of us are asking or.
And to equate the two individuals and bring it in line with the the
subject of discussion, they have both have, through education (coaching
levels) and experience in coaching, prepared themselves for the
challenge of being involved with the national team program. Gender
not being the factor in the selection process (and not to overlook
Daniele Sauvageau, who will be the head coach, has proven her
abilities as a coach also).
Dave
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End of Women-in-Hockey Digest V1 #240
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