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Subject: Women-in-Hockey Digest V1 #105
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Women-in-Hockey Digest Tuesday, January 20 1998 Volume 01 : Number 105
In this issue:
Re: Women in the NHL
Re: CBC TV Coverage - Women's Hockey
Re: women as linesmen
Re: CBC TV Coverage - Women's Hockey
Re: Women in the NHL
Re: The Game of Her Life
Re: The Game of Her Life
Re: The Game of Her Life
Re: The Game of Her Life
Re: CBC TV Coverage - Women's Hockey
Yes, but.
Re: women as linesmen
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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:08:46 EST
From: RG Traynor
Subject: Re: Women in the NHL
<< As for the comment about starting as linesman being a barrier to female
officials, I must disagree. Almost all good referees were once linesmen. It
is not uncommon to be a linesman in a higher league from what you referee. >>
David, you're missing my point. In so far as most officials start as
linesmen, and whenever the subject of women-as-linesmen come up the breaking
up fights issue always arises, it's reasonable to suggest that women would not
get an even break in many men's leagues because of that alone. The barrier is
that women might not be permitted to be linesmen in many areas in the first
place, not that women linesmen would not be credible referees.
= Bevan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:43:59 -0500
From: "Kristen M. Ede"
Subject: Re: CBC TV Coverage - Women's Hockey
Karin,
Thanks for the CBC schedule.
Do you know if they are planning on re-broadcasting any of these games at
prime or day/evening times? I sure hope so..kind of defeats the purpose of
having media exposure for the games if only the diehards are getting up to
watch or tape it.
Do you know if TSN has any broadcasting rights? As well, does anyone know
the American Network's schedule?
Kristen
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:01:14 +0000
From: email@hidden (DAVE BAKER)
Subject: Re: women as linesmen
> Mr. Baker's comments strike me as utterly disingenuous. Anyone who follows
> professional hockey, at any level, is well aware that *all* the officials,
> including sometimes the referees, have to be prepared to break up fights. I
> personally saw Mick McGeough, now with the NHL, do so in the 1990 Calder Cup
> playoffs when a game got out of control. To say that all a female official
> has to do is decide to concentrate on being a referee and not a linesman is
> avoiding reality.
Lisa,
Thanks for your insightful comments. You are absolutley right that
occassionally referees have to get physically invovled. That is why,
for even small linesmen, we attempt to teach them some basic skills
for breaking up fights that rely mainly on using their voice and then
taking advantage of their strength in their legs and lower centre of
gravity than the players. By effectively combining these attributes,
many fights are quite easy to break up. And, in the pros, most of the
"fighters" eventually agree to break up on their own anyway.
So why are there so many giants in the NHL as linesmen? Simple,
presence. Of course the strength factor cannot be overlooked. But a
physical presence in skirmishes on the ice can do wonders in difusing
a situation. So this is why officials of shorter stature, have a
better chance of becoming a professional or at least advancing to
higher levels of the game. Having said that, the smaller official
must have confidence and carry him/herself in a manner that exudes
that confidence without appearing cocky. This is often difficult to
do. Look at Kerry Fraser for example. 5'8" tall but he always seems
taller to me because he is confident and has presence.
> Plus, most referees *do* start out as linesmen, and most linesmen prepare for
> this by working as referees on lower levels - virtually all the summer league
> games in the western Massachusetts areas are referred by John Malinowski and
> Marty Demers, who are veteran AHL linesmen. During the pro season they
> routinely have to break up fights, often quite vicious ones; minor league
> goons are often much rougher than NHL enforcers because they think the only
> way they're going to be noticed is if they rack up enormous PIM totals.
> Linesmen in the NHL development program expect to break up fights, and the
> bigger they are, the better.
I mentioned in my previous post that most referees were once
linesman. That is how good referees gain valuable experience.
Working as a linesman at a higher level and honing his/her skills as
a referee at lower levels of the game. This way the official learns
from more experienced and veteran referees. This is key to their
development. However, eventually, they will make a decision. Do I
want to try and be a pro as a linesman or as a referee? Lyle Seitz
was an NHL linesman when, after filling in for an injured NHL referee
one night, was asked if he would like to try refereeing. He is now
on the NHL trainee program and hoping to earn a spot as a full time
NHL referee someday.
> Finally, smaller linesmen (and officials in general) are at a distinct
> disadvantage, probably because of the physical side of the play. Short AHL
> officials almost never make it to the bigs, regardless of how good they are; I
> was friends with a linesman who was about 5'8", and when he was cut from the
> training program, he was explicitly told he was too short for consideration at
> the NHL level. Considering that the average woman is about four inches
> shorter and about forty pounds lighter than the average man, this puts most
> female officials out of it from the beginning.
First, there are only two linesman officially in any kind of NHL
linesman trainee program, Darren Gibbs and Derek Amell. They will
work 40 games in the NHL and 40 games in the minors this season.
Others can and are hired from the other pro leagues and from Major
Junior from time to time, but right now, they are the only two that
are considered linesmen trainees.
Of course you are absolutely right, they do not tend to look at any
linesmen that are not at least 6' tall. They like the presence on
the ice and the physical capabilities of these men.
Will we see women in the NHL as officials someday? Perhaps. As
linesmen? It is unlikely, but not completely out of the question.
The speed and tempo of the NHL game is completely different than any
amateur hockey any official may be used to. I had the opportunity to
skate on the same ice as some of these players as a linesman in a
pre-Canada Cup exhibition game back in 1988. I was truly amazed at
the size and speed of those players, and I regularly worked Major
Junior hockey at the time. I have not yet seen a female official
that could maintain that pace.
> I'd like to see women work as referees in the NHL, but let's see how it works
> in the minors for a few years before making any blithe statements about how
> all you have to do is work hard and specialize as a referee.
Agreed. If there is a female official worthy of working in the
minors, she should be given the opportunity. But I guarantee you, it
will be one that has elected to follow the route of becoming a
referee.
David Baker
Manager, Officiating
CANADIAN HOCKEY
email@hidden
www.canadianhockey.ca
www.hhof.com/html/chocoe.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:17:57 -0800
From: email@hidden (Megan Bryant)
Subject: Re: CBC TV Coverage - Women's Hockey
The American coverage is:
CBS - The Gold Medal Game.
Big whoop!
- --
Megan #12 Greyhounds
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:13:51 +0000
From: email@hidden (DAVE BAKER)
Subject: Re: Women in the NHL
> << As for the comment about starting as linesman being a barrier to female
> officials, I must disagree. Almost all good referees were once linesmen. It
> is not uncommon to be a linesman in a higher league from what you referee. >>
>
> David, you're missing my point. In so far as most officials start as
> linesmen, and whenever the subject of women-as-linesmen come up the breaking
> up fights issue always arises, it's reasonable to suggest that women would not
> get an even break in many men's leagues because of that alone. The barrier is
> that women might not be permitted to be linesmen in many areas in the first
> place, not that women linesmen would not be credible referees.
>
There is a woman in Canada who, for years, has worked minor hockey.
She has worked her way up to the top level Bantam and Midget hockey,
first as a linesman, and now as a referee. She has been considered
one of the best referees in those divisions. However, she
concentrates a lot on female hockey. She has been offered the
opportunity to referee (not be a linesman) in Junior C hockey. She
declined, because she wanted to concentrate on female hockey.
So, what I am saying is, a talented official does not HAVE to gain
her experience only by working lines in Junior (let's say) to get the
opportunity to referee at that level. There are exceptions to every
rule!!!
David Baker
Manager, Officiating
CANADIAN HOCKEY
email@hidden
www.canadianhockey.ca
www.hhof.com/html/chocoe.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:49:31 -0500
From: Cindy Goodman
Subject: Re: The Game of Her Life
I came away from watching it with a very sick feeling. Shannon Miller is an idiot. She totally hammed it up for the cameras and you're right she is very much like a rattlesnake waiting to strike. I actually think she enjoyed cutting those girls. She likes confrontation and she likes attention. I am not impressed with her as a coach either. What exactly is her record with Team Canada since taking over? I would be interested to know. Does anyone out there have the statistics on that? I also have a few of my own theories as to why the team is not playing as well as it did when they only got together for a few weeks to prepare for these competitions. Isolating these women from their everyday life has had a bad effect with some of the players. Four months of intense workouts on the ice, stress about making the team, having to be "up" all the time (attitude is something they look at) and being "together" all the time has to take it's toll. All the constant "rah rah" stuff has to be !
a bit much after a while too. In everyone's life their has to be a balance. I feel if you concentrate solely on one thing for too long you will become complacent and lose focus. Also has anyone looked at these women lately? They all look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. They aren't used to playing carrying all that extra weight around whether it's muscle or not. Just ask Eric Lindros or Doug Gilmour how damaging it was to their production to have pumped up too much. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they shouldn't work out and shouldn't practice intensley to prepare for the Olympics. I'm just saying don't go overboard and start doing things just for the sake of doing them. Just because it's the Olympics doesn't mean you have to now change everything that worked for you in the past. Sorry for being so long winded.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:56:14 -0500
From: Cindy Goodman
Subject: Re: The Game of Her Life
I came away from watching it with a very sick feeling. Shannon Miller is an idiot. She totally hammed it up for the cameras and you're right she is very much like a rattlesnake waiting to strike. I actually think she enjoyed cutting those girls. She likes confrontation and she likes attention. I am not impressed with her as a coach either. What exactly is her record with Team Canada since taking over? I would be interested to know. Does anyone out there have the statistics on that? I also have a few of my own theories as to why the team is not playing as well as it did when they only got together for a few weeks to prepare for these competitions. Isolating these women from their everyday life has had a bad effect with some of the players. Four months of intense workouts on the ice, stress about making the team, having to be "up" all the time (attitude is something they look at) and being "together" all the time has to take it's toll. All the constant "rah rah" stuff has to be !
a bit much after a while too. In everyone's life their has to be a balance. I feel if you concentrate solely on one thing for too long you will become complacent and lose focus. Also has anyone looked at these women lately? They all look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. They aren't used to playing carrying all that extra weight around whether it's muscle or not. Just ask Eric Lindros or Doug Gilmour how damaging it was to their production to have pumped up too much. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they shouldn't work out and shouldn't practice intensley to prepare for the Olympics. I'm just saying don't go overboard and start doing things just for the sake of doing them. Just because it's the Olympics doesn't mean you have to now change everything that worked for you in the past. Sorry for being so long winded.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:59:35 -0500
From: Cindy Goodman
Subject: Re: The Game of Her Life
I came away from watching it with a very sick feeling. Shannon Miller is an idiot. She totally hammed it up for the cameras and you're right she is very much like a rattlesnake waiting to strike. I actually think she enjoyed cutting those girls. She likes confrontation and she likes attention. I am not impressed with her as a coach either. What exactly is her record with Team Canada since taking over? I would be interested to know. Does anyone out there have the statistics on that? I also have a few of my own theories as to why the team is not playing as well as it did when they only got together for a few weeks to prepare for these competitions. Isolating these women from their everyday life has had a bad effect with some of the players. Four months of intense workouts on the ice, stress about making the team, having to be "up" all the time (attitude is something they look at) and being "together" all the time has to take it's toll. All the constant "rah rah" stuff has to be !
a bit much after a while too. In everyone's life their has to be a balance. I feel if you concentrate solely on one thing for too long you will become complacent and lose focus. Also has anyone looked at these women lately? They all look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. They aren't used to playing carrying all that extra weight around whether it's muscle or not. Just ask Eric Lindros or Doug Gilmour how damaging it was to their production to have pumped up too much. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they shouldn't work out and shouldn't practice intensley to prepare for the Olympics. I'm just saying don't go overboard and start doing things just for the sake of doing them. Just because it's the Olympics doesn't mean you have to now change everything that worked for you in the past. Sorry for being so long winded.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:02:35 -0500
From: Cindy Goodman
Subject: Re: The Game of Her Life
I came away from watching it with a very sick feeling. Shannon Miller is an idiot. She totally hammed it up for the cameras and you're right she is very much like a rattlesnake waiting to strike. I actually think she enjoyed cutting those girls. She likes confrontation and she likes attention. I am not impressed with her as a coach either. What exactly is her record with Team Canada since taking over? I would be interested to know. Does anyone out there have the statistics on that? I also have a few of my own theories as to why the team is not playing as well as it did when they only got together for a few weeks to prepare for these competitions. Isolating these women from their everyday life has had a bad effect with some of the players. Four months of intense workouts on the ice, stress about making the team, having to be "up" all the time (attitude is something they look at) and being "together" all the time has to take it's toll. All the constant "rah rah" stuff has to be !
a bit much after a while too. In everyone's life their has to be a balance. I feel if you concentrate solely on one thing for too long you will become complacent and lose focus. Also has anyone looked at these women lately? They all look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. They aren't used to playing carrying all that extra weight around whether it's muscle or not. Just ask Eric Lindros or Doug Gilmour how damaging it was to their production to have pumped up too much. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they shouldn't work out and shouldn't practice intensley to prepare for the Olympics. I'm just saying don't go overboard and start doing things just for the sake of doing them. Just because it's the Olympics doesn't mean you have to now change everything that worked for you in the past. Sorry for being so long winded.
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 98 10:40:55 PST (Tue)
From: Chuck Collins
Subject: Re: CBC TV Coverage - Women's Hockey
> The American coverage is:
>
> CBS - The Gold Medal Game.
>
> Big whoop!
Sigh. Probably interspersed with long periods of missed coverage as they switch
to a personal interview with Pikaboo Street's 92-year-old grandmother in
Frostbite Falls, Montana. Or is Frostbite Falls in Minnesota?
So do any of the Satellite Services available in the US include CBC and TSN?
- - Chuck Collins
email@hidden
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:36:14 EST
From: RG Traynor
Subject: Yes, but.
I wouldn't consider an offer to a single female ref to work Junior C the
coming of the millenium, any more than I would have accepted Willie O'Ree's
playing half of the 1961 season for a terrible Bruins team proof of the NHL's
integration of blacks. Show me a dozen female officials, not only working the
junior leagues but high schools, colleges and pros, and that'll be real
progress.
- - Bevan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:13:35 -0800
From: Anne Paulson
Subject: Re: women as linesmen
Dave Baker writes:
>
> So why are there so many giants in the NHL as linesmen? Simple,
> presence. Of course the strength factor cannot be overlooked.
[snip]
> I mentioned in my previous post that most referees were once
> linesman. That is how good referees gain valuable experience.
> Working as a linesman at a higher level and honing his/her skills as
> a referee at lower levels of the game. This way the official learns
> from more experienced and veteran referees. This is key to their
> development. However, eventually, they will make a decision. Do I
> want to try and be a pro as a linesman or as a referee?
[snip]
> Of course you are absolutely right, they do not tend to look at any
> linesmen [for the NHL? -- Anne] that are not at least 6' tall. They like
> the presence on the ice and the physical capabilities of these men.
>
> Will we see women in the NHL as officials someday? Perhaps. As
> linesmen? It is unlikely, but not completely out of the question.
OK, so if I understand this correctly, a woman who wanted to be an
NHL ref would work in the lower levels starting as a linesman, and
then specializing as a ref, because she wouldn't be big and
strong enough to be a linesman at the NHL level (probably- of course
there certainly are some women who are 6', 180. But not many.).
She wouldn't be able to become an NHL ref unless she had worked the
lines at lower levels, because she wouldn't have had enough experience. Is
there currently a problem with women becoming linesmen at lower levels?
Are they thought of as less qualified because they're women? Are they
thought of as less qualified because they're smaller and weaker, perhaps
even though men of the same size, strength and/or skating ability
are deemed qualified? Are there some women right now who are on
the ladder that leads to being NHL refs, even on lower rungs?
I'd like to see a woman ref in the NHL-- but only if she were qualified.
I'd like to see women working their way up to that level-- but only if
they're qualified.
- -- Anne Paulson
------------------------------
End of Women-in-Hockey Digest V1 #105
*************************************