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Subject: Women-in-Hockey Digest V1 #141
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Women-in-Hockey Digest Wednesday, February 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 141
In this issue:
Re: Now that it's over
Re: 'The glass is half full' and is the press and recognition that wo men's hockey has finally received in the Olympics!!!
U.S.A. and Canada Women's Hockey Cards
More aftermath
Re: Promises
Re: SPOILER
Re: Shannon Miller
Re: SPOILER
Re: CBS Coverage - Pathetic!
Need Your Tournaments!
Don Cherry
Re: Promises
Re: Shannon Miller
Re: Some USA/Canada thoughts.....
Re: Don Cherry
RE: Merchandise
Re: Promises
Re: More aftermath
Re: SPOILER
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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:57:07 -0400
From: Debbie Minden
Subject: Re: Now that it's over
And less than 24 hours after the game, I have had requests for information
about playing girl's and women's hockey at our club.
Debbie
>At 8:45 AM -0800 2/17/98, email@hidden wrote:
>> Now that the first olympic women's hockey is over. My feeling is
>>that women's
>> hockey will snowball across the country and world.
>
>If the size of the women-in-hockey list is any indication, it's
>happening. As the olympics got closer, it started growing, and it's
>growing still. 14 new members in the last week (welcome, all!), and
>four in the last 12 hours.
***********************************************************
Debbie Minden
email@hidden
215-635-4817
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 02:06:43 -0400
From: Debbie Minden
Subject: Re: 'The glass is half full' and is the press and recognition that wo men's hockey has finally received in the Olympics!!!
Yup. Lord help the person who coaches Team USA next time around. And Team
Canada's coach will come off like and angel. When you are in the cat bird
seat, it seems to draw out those who like to take pot shots.
Debbie
>Unfortunately, I've also observed that far too many criticizing what to
>me seems like a spectacular feat - a medal in the Olympics. And I've
>noticed far more criticism has been oriented around Miller than any
>other coach. To my knowledge, I don't recall any articles second
>guessing or criticizing the head coaches [in women's hockey] from any
>other countries about their player selection (final cuts) or coaching
>style as they have Miller. Do you think Mr. Smith would have received
>half the criticism that Miller has received had the US Team taken
>Silver?
***********************************************************
Debbie Minden
email@hidden
215-635-4817
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:52:26 -0800 (PST)
From: email@hidden (Liam, Agnes & Daniel Coughlan)
Subject: U.S.A. and Canada Women's Hockey Cards
Hi:
I have 104 different hockey cards of U.S.A. and Canadian Women's National
team members for sale.
Email me and I will send you the list.
Liam
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:23:58 EST
From: email@hidden
Subject: More aftermath
It sounds as though the effects of the Olympics on women's hockey has not been
as profound in as many places as it has been here on the East coast.
Regardless of CBS' coverage (I seem to remember us all hoping we'd see
anything at all 6 months to a year ago) and the final outcome, women's hockey
has taken an incredible leap forward in a short amount of time.
Our team has grown by four members in the last week. Our arena wants to take
over management of the team and start a women's league. There are pros and
cons for this, but I will appreciate the ability to just show up and play for
once in my life (although I'm sure I'll do more than that) and not have to
worry about paying for the ice time, finding enough motivated players, team
politics, etc...
In response to one person's question about media coverage, as I mentioned
yesterday, the Stamford Storm will be on ABC's Eyewitness news on February 25
from 5:00 - 9:00 am. This is in the NYC area. Their weatherman is going to
be the goaltender and we will be on the air 17 or 18 times that morning.
Regarding the men: I'm glad to have read what Chuq said. I have had a bad
experience with men's support of women's hockey and am very quick to believe
that there was nobody there. One question I often get from men is, "How many
lesbians are on your team?" Does anyone ever ask a guy how many men on his
team are gay?
I was about to say that hopefully men everywhere will start to realize that we
are not trying to take anything away from them, but perhaps we are. We want
decent ice time and good coaching and that's something they'll have to learn
to share. My son has had the luxury of just showing up to play for years now,
but he has also seen what I have gone through to get on the ice. Maybe this
next generation will have some more respect.
Women's hockey has made great strides despite CBS's coverage and Shannon
Miller's choice of players. I choose to bask in the glory rather than be
pissed off.
Abby Clabough
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:41:32 -0500
From: Cindy Goodman
Subject: Re: Promises
Dave so nice to have you back again. Is it just coincedence your return has coinsided with the womens games being over? You didn't get gagged now did you? And for the record, unlike Coach Miller, this isn't personal. I just don't like what she has done to the women's
team, the womens program and for womens hockey in general. We could have done without all the self serving melodramatics all week. As I have said many times, it's supposed to be about the athletes not the coach.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:56:09 -0500
From: Cindy Goodman
Subject: Re: SPOILER
Thank you. I couldn't have said it any better. I have taken so much heat up here in the great white North for saying exactly that. It is very reassuring to know there is another sane soul out there who sees what I do. Dave Baker from the CHA keeps harping on and on saying that I just hate her. He doesn't understand what I have been trying to say. With you message maybe now he will. Dave read Greg Smith from the 17th called the Spoiler. Thank you. Cindy.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:01:14 -0500
From: Cindy Goodman
Subject: Re: Shannon Miller
Two good things about your message Andria. First we are rid of Shannon Miller to the US (why they would want her is beyond me) and second it's kind of comforting for the citizens of Calgary I'm sure that this woman won't be walking the streets with a gun.
But Iagree with you, congrats to the players for the silver medal and the exposure can only be good for the sport.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:10:00 -0500
From: Cindy Goodman
Subject: Re: SPOILER
It's not an excuse, it's a reason. And no one has ever said the Americans aren't a good hockey team. They probably should have won the last worlds. And maybe just maybe some of us know a little more about the behind the scenes stuff than others but have been hesitant to come out with it out of respect for the players on the team now. You criticize people for saying their opinions as if they were fact yet that is exactly what you have done.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:34:40, -0500
From: email@hidden (BOBBIE STANFILL)
Subject: Re: CBS Coverage - Pathetic!
Did anyone besides me watch it on TNT in the afternoon? I haven't compared
coverage, but I've taped both and it seemed that TNT showed more of the
game, although still chopped & cut.
bobbie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:02:49 +0000
From: Kelly Connelly
Subject: Need Your Tournaments!
Hi to the list!
Do you have a women's ice or roller hockey tournament in 1998 that you want
listed in the upcoming issue of HIPCHECK Magazine, North America's Magazine
on Women's Ice and Roller Hockey. Our Tournament Calendar is always looking
for new tourney dates to list for all of 1998.
Email me at email@hidden
Kelly Connelly
Managing Editor
HIPCHECK
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:32:58 -0500
From: k braun
Subject: Don Cherry
Not that I would EVER want to leave the subject of the Nagano coverage
(ZZzzzz) but how about that Don Cherry? Over the years I've watched
him...I come from male household who's Sat. night entertainment
was...Guess What? To be honest, I couldn't stand the man until I got
involved with women's hockey and realized what a supporter he is...not
only of girls, but youth in general.
When in the Coaches Corner in between the first and second period of the
last game he said that women should be coached by women I nearly fell
over. He supported the argument by saying if the team is made up of
women, officiated by women, why ever would men be coaching. He said
there were lots of women coaches out there and that having a male coach
who dealt with the women as if he had a male team was not right.
Thank you Don. In my opinion we need more of that attitude.
I don't for a minute knock all the things I have seen our male coaches
do. I've seen the time and committment they put forth. I can honestly
say that we have had a few male coaches who's hearts ARE in the right
place. That being said however, I also know what it's like to have males
look at a female coach with derision. I have seen female coaches as good
as or better in the handling of girls quit. I have also seen females
afraid to enter into coaching because they think they'll be laughed at.
(Oh no...I couldn't COACH!!...but maybe my husband....) (gag, gag) It's
part of the beast that still exists.
If females get positive support and become role models for the upcoming
generation how can we go wrong? Looking at people like Shannon Miller et
al, how can you not feel pride in what they have accomplished? Hopefully
too, these women on our Team Canada WILL coach when they are through and
have the time. Look at THEIR coaches.
Don hit it right on the nose. I have respect for anyone who's heart is
in the right place. Nice plug for Hazel too!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:31:55 -0800
From: "Lynn or Mike Witkowski"
Subject: Re: Promises
>> Does anyone else think it was just a little bit arrogant to have
>> promised the gold medal as Coach Miller did the day they left for
>> Japan? Didn't that put even more unneeded pressure on these
>> athlete to perform? Can't get it out of my mind.
>Could it not be considered confidence? What is wrong with that? You
>just HATE her, it is very obvious.
>Dave
Cindy's feelings have been quite honest since the start of this
discussion. I think too that she reflects the feelings of a lot of
Canadians. It is a shame that Canada did not win gold. What with the
thousands of female hockey players in Canada it is amazing that we couldn't
ice a gold medal team. There is no denying that Canada has gone downhill
since the team was selected. I said before that not many Canadian girls
were looked at as possibilities for this team. And I really believe that
Shannon Miller was not the right choice of head coach for this team.
Perhaps assistant, but not head coach. Experience at this level is not the
strength of Canadian female coaches at this time. While I am sad about
Canada not winning gold, I think the US deserved it... Team Canada was
OUTSIZED & OUTPLAYED, but more importantly we were OUTCOACHED. As much as I
may not like the attitudes of some of the US players, they were selected and
played and coached to win. There were no political or whatever
controversies surrounding them.
Take heart though Cindy... Team USA's men are not doing nearly as well
as our men!
Lynn
PS I am not sure that the mail I have been sending is getting through. Can
someone let me know if they got this.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:50:05 -0500
From: Louise
Subject: Re: Shannon Miller
Andria Hunter wrote:
>I have just heard that Shannon Miller is going to coach at the
>University of Minnesota in Duluth. That doesn't come as a big
>surprise as I heard earlier that she wasn't planning to go back
>to her job as a police officer.
The CBS announcers said this during their coverage of the final game. It
was news to me too. But when Shannon was in Brian Williams' CBC studio
12-16 hours after the game [Wed 1pm, JST], he asked her what she was going
to do next, and she didn't say that. She said she was keeping her options
open - staying with Team Canada to build the program towards the next
Olympics, coaching at an American college, or returning to the police force
in Calgary. That makes me doubt that she'd already accepted a job offer
from UMD. I think it's more likely that what she does next depends on what
kind of package she can work out with the CHA.
Louise
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:12:14 -0800
From: "Phil & Debbie Cottrell"
Subject: Re: Some USA/Canada thoughts.....
Hi Chuq:
Excellent posting, you seem to have things in perspective. Though I guess
I'm in the Miller-skeptic camp, I don't see that it's appropriate to blame
her entirely for the Canadian silver medal. I see her as someone who has
been put in a very difficult position, but that her personality flaws have
come out under pressure (as they do) and spread a kind of creeping paralysis
over the team. They spent too long with her. I think the team would have
been fresher if they'd gotten together one month before the Olympics, gone
hard at it for a few exhibitions and then hit Japan. But of course that's
not how it was structured.
Good to see that the "American Women" (obligatory pop culture reference
there) will get the spotlight to themselves in their country.
Phil, Victoria, BC
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:20:04 -0800
From: "Phil & Debbie Cottrell"
Subject: Re: Don Cherry
>but how about that Don Cherry >last game he said that women should be
coached by women I nearly fell over.
Incredible what women's hockey can do for people...Who ever thought that Don
would turn into a 90's guy, getting onside with employment equity?
Seriously, he drops a lot of the bluster and comes off as a regular person
during women's hockey. Another reason we can be grateful to Team Canada.
Phil, Victoria, BC
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 08:29:00 -0800
From: "HARRIS, zharris"
Subject: RE: Merchandise
K> At the USA/Canada game last month in San Jose they were selling some
K> Team USA
K> merchandise (hats and t-shirts), I was wondering if anyone knows if
K> they are
K> still selling those and how I could order them???
Women's Hockey World at http://home.onestop.net/zmh offers women's hockey
t-shirts (including an an Olympic shirt).... as well as books on women's
hockey (including the new book, "Too Many Men on the Ice") and coaching the
sport.
Thanks!
Zoe Harris
Women's Hockey World
http://home.onestop.net/zmh
email@hidden
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:34:30 -0500
From: Cindy Goodman
Subject: Re: Promises
I would be happy to be the person to let you know I got your message loud and clear. I thank you for the support. I do feel I may not have made myself completely clear with some of my messages. I harbour no ill will toward Shannon Miller as a person, I simply feel as you do that she was not qualified to handle this responsibility. Mr. Baker has chosen to make this some sort of personal thing but it's not at all. I too want a female coaching the womens team. Don Cherry was right about that. However, you can't put a female in that position simply because you want a woman. The best available 'person' should be there. If there is a woman qualified then great. But that person has to be there for the good of the program not her own personal glory or agenda. The CHA through Dave Baker has already admitted they goofed with this choice. It's going to happen. It's just too bad they didn't listen to the skeptics. Or use a more informed way of selection. I'm sure with every word I utter !
they are just seething. I know they are angry with me but I am not going to remain silent about something I feel so strongly about. I care about womens hockey too much. Hope you got this message.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:31:15 -0800
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: More aftermath
At 4:23 AM -0800 2/18/98, email@hidden wrote:
> One question I often get from men is, "How many
> lesbians are on your team?" Does anyone ever ask a guy how many men on his
> team are gay?
Here's a big difference -- the women probably know the answer. The men
either assume (or hope) the answer is none (and they're probably wrong).
> I was about to say that hopefully men everywhere will start to
>realize that we
> are not trying to take anything away from them, but perhaps we are.
You're trying to take away their control of your destiny. Some men have
problems iwth that. Not a new issue, either, men have been doign this
for thousands of years. But we'll get used to dealing with women as
equals some day. (I hope).
- --
Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? )
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:email@hidden)
Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:email@hidden)
+
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:36:24 -0800
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: SPOILER
At 5:10 AM -0800 2/18/98, Cindy Goodman wrote:
> You criticize people for saying their opinions as if they were
> fact yet that is exactly what you have done.
Speaking of polarized opinions of Shannon Miller.
Cindy, I don't know why you hate Miller so much, but I hope some day
you'll mellow out just enough to realize just how
over-the-edge-of-reasonableness you are right now. But I don't think so.
It's too bad you're so fixated on how evil Miller is, because whatever
legitimate criticisms you have of her are constantly being lost in the
venom you surround them with.
chuq
- --
Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? )
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:email@hidden)
Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:email@hidden)
+
------------------------------
End of Women-in-Hockey Digest V1 #141
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