Parent
WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 576
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: High school girls' teams
by email@hidden
2) Re: High school girls' teams
by Lynn Witkowski
3) Title IX
by email@hidden
4) teams in the Boston area??
by email@hidden
5) Canada Narch tournament
by email@hidden
6) Re: Title IX
by Edward N Saunders
7) Re: Title IX
by "Serene Satterlund"
8) RE: Title IX
by "Ashmun, Julia D"
9) Women's Varsity Ice Hockey added at OSU
by kimberly lynne svec
10) Re: teams in the Boston area??
by email@hidden (Jules Smith)
11) Re: Nike Ice Hockey Skates ?/ nike sticks....
by Chuck Collins
12) Re: High school girls' teams
by Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
13) Idiot sales clerks/Women's Ice Hockey
by email@hidden
14) Laura Stamm's Power Skating
by Laura
15) Re: Idiot sales clerks/Women's Ice Hockey
by "Caroline Roberts"
16) RE: Idiot sales clerks/Women's Ice Hockey
by "Ashmun, Julia D"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:42:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden, email@hidden
Subject: Re: High school girls' teams
Message-ID:
Congratulations on your persistent effort, Susie!
That's great that you went above the athletic director's head to get a team
for your school. I hope that taught him a lesson!
I recommend this same effort to anyone in a college that does not have a
team, but has access to a rink. At certain times of the day (or night) ice
time can be very easy to come by - especially if it is your own school's
rink. If they can have things such as broom-ball as an *organized sport* they
should feel obligated to allot time for women's ice hockey!
As many of you may have read when we were discussing practice times, 5am or
11pm is not uncommon. In fact, although I hate early morning, I was more than
willing to get up just to be on the ice. I liked to watch the sun come in
through one of the tiny windows and shine onto the ice while we were
practicing. It gave me a sense of satisfaction that I had accomplished so
much before 8am!
Again - great work Susie!
Jenn
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:48:20 -0400
From: Lynn Witkowski
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: High school girls' teams
Message-ID:
Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden wrote:
> If you figure that high schools do not own their own rinks and have to pay
> for their own ice time, they go way above the football budget in a heart
> beat. Football paractices are about 2-2.5 hours a day, and the school owns
> and groom the field. Hockey is a 2 semester sport, about 80-90 days a
> year. One hour of ice time at the cheapest is $200. So you are already
> aobut $16,000 to $18,000. To dress a kid is about $300. That does not
Wow, that is expensive. Let me tell you how they work it in Sudbury.
The school board and the municipality have a trade off arrangement. The
schools are used at night by various community groups ie: gymnasiums,
classrooms etc, and for that the high school get to use the arenas at no
cost. The only cost is referees. The schools use the ice from 3:30 till
5 or 5:30pm Monday to Thursday (non prime hours). To play high school
hockey here there is almost no cost to the player. I had to pay for my
daughter's jersey and her travel expenses. Some schools fundraise enough
for most of these expenses.
The rental revenue of the school facilities goes to the municipality,
but they are much cheaper than in other communities. I heard in Southern
Ontario, that the "rope jumpers" pay over $100 per hour to rent
gymnasiums, and they are hard to come by. Also any user group that is
affiliated with the city can use the school facilities for their
organisations at a very minimal cost. This year it cost our league $25
(year) for the use of a school library one night per week and the use of
the gymnasium (when available) once per week. We use the library for our
regular meetings, and the gym for dryland and our general meetings. It
is very cost effective for us, and the city says they benifit
financially from this arrangement. Maybe you can lobby your
municipalities for the same sort of thing.
> transportation yada yada yada, foot ball is cheap. I love hockey. Don't
> get me wrong, but are facing a real litteracy and moral crisis in our
> schools, and more time spent teaching is more to the point. Sports do help
> build our kids, but we are playing ostrich if we think that sports will
> help solve the legacy of mediocray we have given to our kids.
Have any studies been done regarding how many kids who are actively
involved in sports and are also involved in the criminal justice system
(as criminals)? I do know that studies have shown that many kids who do
well in sports also do well in school!
Lynn
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:49:17 -0600
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Title IX
Message-ID:
Someone brought up a good question of me. One I forgot to mention
because I was not thinking beyond high school.
YES! COLLEGES HAVE TO BE IN COMPLIANCE WITH TITLE IX.
Also, another criteria popped up in reading some of the other e-mails on
the list. According to the Minnesota State High School Leagues
intrepretation of Title IX. If a school OWNED their own rink - they
absolutely, positively HAD TO offer an ice sport for girls (no matter
what).
Hope this is further help.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:54:26 EDT
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: teams in the Boston area??
Message-ID:
I have been playing hockey for four years now. I will be attending Tufts
University next year. Unfortunately, they do not have a varsity or a club
team. I would like to continue playing in college.
I'm sure there are many teams in the Boston area. Could anyone give me
names of teams and people I could get in touch with? Any help will be
greatly appreciated...
thanks,
-Susan
-----Princeton Regional Schools takes no responsibility for the
accuracy or content of the above message.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:05:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Canada Narch tournament
Message-ID:
I was wondering if anyone else was going to the Narch Finals in Vancouver
this August
Becky---#19
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:34:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Edward N Saunders
To: email@hidden
Cc: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Re: Title IX
Message-ID:
Although I am a proponent of gender equity, especially in hockey, do not
assume that Title IX will automatically give you the right to form a
women's hockey team. It is a very complicated issue, with various legal
tests that can be used to determine compliance. IT IS NOT SIMPLY
MEASURABLE ON A RATIO OR SPORT-BY-SPORT BASIS.
1. An institution must receive federal funding if it is to be forced to
comply.
2. The test for compliance is a comparison of the, "availability,
quality and kinds of benefits, opportunities and treatment afforded
members of both sexes. Institutions will be in compliance if the
compared program components are equivalent, that is equal OR EQUAL IN
EFFECT. Under this standard, IDENTICAL BENEFITs, OPPORTUNITIES OR
TREATMENT ARE NOT REQUIRED, provided the overall effect of any
differences is negligible."
3. Tests:
a. effective accomidation of interests and abilities of athletes
b. provision of equipment and supplies
c. scheduling of games and practice times
d. travel and per diem allowance
e. coaching and tutoring resources
f. compensation to coaches and tutors
g. locker rooms and facilities
h. medical training services
i. housing and dinning services
j. publicity
4. Further, a school only needs to show two of the following three:
a. ratios
b. adequate interest, need, & ability
c. HISTORICAL ATTEMPT TO COMPLY
5. In order to win on a claim of gender discrimination, plaintiff must
show that state action was involved in the denial of the request.
6. The trend is to cut men's sports out of financial concerns.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Keep up the fight, but understand
it is not at all easy.
Ed.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:13:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Serene Satterlund"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Title IX
Message-ID:
> 4. Further, a school only needs to show two of the following three:
>
> a. ratios
> b. adequate interest, need, & ability
> c. HISTORICAL ATTEMPT TO COMPLY
>
>
> 6. The trend is to cut men's sports out of financial concerns.
My school (Michigan State) equalled out the numbers by CUTTING men's fencing
and lacrosse (can you believe that!?) and adding women's crew because of the
numbers they got without too much of a budget... we did have our Varsity
application in, but they didn't think the numbers were worth the price. Too
bad since they will most likely have to add a hockey team in a few years
anyway...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:20:33 -0400
From: "Ashmun, Julia D"
To: "'email@hidden'"
Subject: RE: Title IX
Message-ID:
Please note that where Title IX is hard to enforce, especially for
expensive (or non-tradiontal) sports, that 100% of private lawsuits
filed for gender equity violations have been won (see WFS for more
information).
> ----------
> From: Edward N Saunders[SMTP:email@hidden]
> Reply To: email@hidden
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 1997 11:40 AM
> To: Subscribers to
> Subject: Re: Title IX
>
>
>
> Although I am a proponent of gender equity, especially in hockey, do
> not
> assume that Title IX will automatically give you the right to form a
> women's hockey team. It is a very complicated issue, with various
> legal
> tests that can be used to determine compliance. IT IS NOT SIMPLY
> MEASURABLE ON A RATIO OR SPORT-BY-SPORT BASIS.
>
> 1. An institution must receive federal funding if it is to be forced
> to
> comply.
>
> 2. The test for compliance is a comparison of the, "availability,
> quality and kinds of benefits, opportunities and treatment afforded
> members of both sexes. Institutions will be in compliance if the
> compared program components are equivalent, that is equal OR EQUAL IN
> EFFECT. Under this standard, IDENTICAL BENEFITs, OPPORTUNITIES OR
> TREATMENT ARE NOT REQUIRED, provided the overall effect of any
> differences is negligible."
>
> 3. Tests:
>
> a. effective accomidation of interests and abilities of athletes
> b. provision of equipment and supplies
> c. scheduling of games and practice times
> d. travel and per diem allowance
> e. coaching and tutoring resources
> f. compensation to coaches and tutors
> g. locker rooms and facilities
> h. medical training services
> i. housing and dinning services
> j. publicity
>
>
> 4. Further, a school only needs to show two of the following three:
>
> a. ratios
> b. adequate interest, need, & ability
> c. HISTORICAL ATTEMPT TO COMPLY
>
>
> 5. In order to win on a claim of gender discrimination, plaintiff
> must
> show that state action was involved in the denial of the request.
>
>
> 6. The trend is to cut men's sports out of financial concerns.
>
> This is just the tip of the iceberg. Keep up the fight, but
> understand
> it is not at all easy.
>
> Ed.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:43:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: kimberly lynne svec
To: email@hidden
Subject: Women's Varsity Ice Hockey added at OSU
Message-ID:
Here is an article my dad forwarded to me about Ohio State's women's
hockey team...
>
>>From the Dispatch:
>May 15, 1997
>OSU women to get varsity status in ice hockey
>By Bob Baptist
>Dispatch Sports Reporter
>
> At a lecture in her sports law class last winter, Ohio State law
>student Karen Karamanoukian listened to an attorney from the
>university's office of legal affairs discuss Title IX and gender
>equity.
> She heard the attorney, Julie Vannatta, say it would be easy for
>OSU to add a women's ice hockey program because the school
>already had a facility in which to play.
> Karamanoukian just so happens to coach and play for the women's
>ice hockey club at Ohio State.
> "I approached (Vannatta) after class, told her I was the coach, and
>we got into a brief discussion about how to approach it,"
>Karamanoukian said. "She said I should set up a meeting with
>(athletic director) Andy Geiger."
> The first meeting was in January. By next season, Ohio State will
>begin phasing in women's ice hockey as a varsity sport, increasing
>to 35 the number of sports offered by the school and bringing OSU
>near strict compliance with Title IX, the federal law that prohibits
>sex discrimination in institutions that receive government aid.
> Title IX requires the percentage of women varsity athletes at a
>school to be equal to the percentage of women undergraduates at
>the school.
> "At Ohio State right now, 47 1/2 percent of our undergrads are
>female," Geiger said. "This year, the difference between our
>student-body female population and the student-athlete female
>population is less than 5 percent, which is statistical compliance.
> "This will bring our programs pretty close to straight-up
>proportional compliance, and that's been our goal."
> The women's ice hockey program will be phased in over three
>years.
> The athletic department will fund it with $50,000 next season to
>help the club defray costs of equipment and travel. For 1998-99,
>the program will receive another $50,000 and a salaried, full-time
>coach.
> Varsity status will begin in 1999-2000, when funding increases to "a
>few hundred thousand," Geiger said, and the first of what
>eventually will be 18 grants-in-aid -- the NCAA maximum for
>men's and women's hockey -- are offered.
> Twenty-two NCAA schools sponsored ice hockey for women last
>season; 10 were in Division I. The total will increase next season,
>Karamanoukian said, noting that Colgate, Maine, Minnesota and
>Wisconsin are among an undetermined number of programs being
>elevated to varsity status.
> Karamanoukian said Ohio State has had a women's club team for
>six years and recently completed its first season in the eight-team
>Central Collegiate Women's Hockey Association, which includes
>many of the same schools that compete in the men's CCHA.
> OSU played about 40 games overall, Karamanoukian said, was 12-
>1-1 in the CCWHA, won the league tournament and finished
>second in the national club championships in the OSU Ice Rink in
>mid-April.
> The club has about 50 players on two teams, advanced and novice,
>Karamanoukian said. Players can be OSU students, faculty or staff
>or their spouses. Until now, they have paid for their travel and
>equipment -- it can range from $700 to $2,000 a player, depending
>on the position -- out of their own pockets and through fund-
>raising.
> With the $50,000 from the athletic department next season, "I'm
>assuming we will want to buy at least 20 sets of equipment,"
>Karamanoukian said. "All of that eventually will be turned over to
>the varsity team."
> Karamanoukian grew up in Buffalo, N.Y., and has been playing ice
>hockey since she was 2. She said she has played on boys, men's and
>women's teams that have won state and national championships.
>She has no regrets that she and her teammates were a little bit
>before their time to enjoy the benefits of varsity status.
> "Everyone's very excited," Karamanoukian said. "We all
>understand the sport can't be varsity next year. . . . It's going to
>take time. But it's promoting women's hockey, and that's great."
>
> * BUCKSHOTS -- Retired associate athletic director Phyllis
>Bailey has been selected for induction by the National Association
>of Collegiate Athletic Directors' hall of fame. At OSU, she helped
>establish the Big Ten's first women's athletic program in 1965. . . .
>The men's golf team plays today through Saturday in the NCAA
>Central Regional in Norman, Okla. The top 10 teams in the 54-hole
>tournament advance to the NCAA championships, May 28-31 in
>Chicago.
>
>kris
>email@hidden
>
>
>ooooooooo This message forwarded via the ohio-state mailing list. ooooooooo
>ooo Next game: Thursday, August 28, Wyoming at OSU, 8:00pm ET ooo
>ooo For info on the mailing list, alumni clubs, tickets, and schedules, ooo
>ooooooooo see the FAQ: http://www.worldweb.net/~jcanterb/fosml/. oooooooooo
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 97 14:29:57 -0400
From: email@hidden (Jules Smith)
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: teams in the Boston area??
Message-ID: <9705201829.AA03981@pinion>
> Could anyone give me names of teams and people I could get in touch with?
Any help will be
>greatly appreciated...
Hi susan,
I don't know about all-women teams/leagues, but I play for Hockey North
America, which has co-ed teams that play in & around the Boston area (my
teams' home arena is the Wilmington Ristuccia Arena, but we play mainly at
Babson & Watertown arenas) They have a summer league starting mid-June, as
well as Fall, Winter & Spring leagues. Call 1.800.4.HOCKEY and speak to
Alan Rakvin.
You might also try the "Hockey Academy", they also have co-ed leagues.
1.800.800.7373 Good Luck!
Jules Smith #8 Captain, Shooters
Industrial Design
Mechanical Engineering
Intelligent Automation Systems, Inc.
149 Sidney St. Cambridge, MA 02139
617.354.3830 fax:617.547.9727
e-mail: email@hidden Find us on the Web! " www.ias.com"
------------------------------
Date: 20 May 97 11:55:26 PDT (Tue)
From: Chuck Collins
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Nike Ice Hockey Skates ?/ nike sticks....
Message-ID:
I was recently in a local hockey shop when a bus pulled up and all 20
members of some Russian hockey team descended on the store. Not everyone
was inside when one of the players had carried a pair of the low-end Nikes
(Air Pursuit) to the check-out counter. California tax (8++%) included,
he got less than $10 change from his four $100 bills.
Yikes, 4 bills for the low end?
By the way, anyone have any idea who this team might have been? It was
about 10 days or two weeks ago in Belmont, CA. The players looked to be
late teens / early 20s. They also bought a team's worth of teal Sharks'
socks.
- Chuck Collins
P. S. Another local hockey shop has a ratty old pair of Nike shoes on display
with ice skating blades riveted to the bottom. I guess they got tired
of people asking if they had Nike skates yet.
> << Hmmm... I figured Nike probably just redesigned the outside of the
> Bauer Comps, added a swoosh and upped the price a hundred bucks. If I were
> Nike, that's probably what I would do. Anyone seen them up close and
> personal and can make a comparison?
>
> Don Wright
> RI Panthers>>
>
> I Have not seen them in person yet. Stores in NY will be getting them in a
> few weeks. However, there is a web page., with pics and descriptions.
>
>
> http://www.gremic.com/nikeice.HTML
>
> Unfortunately, the web address does not have prices. They must be expensive,
> at least judging from the price of their hockey sticks $90!!.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:57:09 -0400
From: Gary Goldberg and/or Debbie Minden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: High school girls' teams
Message-ID:
> Have any studies been done regarding how many kids who are actively
>involved in sports and are also involved in the criminal justice system
>(as criminals)? I do know that studies have shown that many kids who do
>well in sports also do well in school!
>
>Lynn
In France about25 years ago, there was a long-range study. Children were
given the usual weekly curriculum (which has a longer day, and about 5.5
days per week and about 30 days longer than the usual US school year), and
the other half of the children were given the same number of hours per
week, but .5 of the week was spent in physical exercise, while the other .5
was spent covering the regular curriculum. The children who were given
more exercise did better academically than the first group. I cannot give
you the exact citation because of so many moves and so many lost boxes and
books, but I remember the results, and found them compelling. When my own
personal kids get pesky and don't know what to do with themselves, I tell
them to go run around the block. It usually works. Also, I took my twins
to the doctor for their 11 year check-up today. One weighs 75 lbs and the
other weiths 105 lbs. (Both girls, a figure skater and a hockey player)
The doctor was impressed by their musculature. He usually didn't see girls
build like that. They are both on the honour roll. It seems that exercise
vs. couch potato-hood makes a real difference in our kids. But we knew
that.
Debbie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:03:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Idiot sales clerks/Women's Ice Hockey
Message-ID:
I am 31 year old woman just starting to learn ice hockey....Just last week I
went into Paragon Sporting Goods in NYC to buy my first pair of ice hockey
skates. I was having what started out ot be a very pleasant conversation
with the sales clerk, up unitl the moment when I mentioned that I was going
to be playing ice hockey, not just using the skates for ice skating. I will
spare you the details of the conversation, but the gist of it was that he was
adamantly opposed to women playing ice hockey. He said it "ruins the game."
He also babbled something about it ruining the "tradition" of the game.
After telling him that he was a total idiot, I let the store manager know
about his "opinionated employee." I also walked out, leaving the skates and
all the other equipment I would have bought behind.
That is the last time I will go into that store.
I did, however, find 2 other shops that were very friendly, helpful, and
knowledgebale:
Cosby's (7th Ave. & 32nd St.) and the shop at Chelsea Piers (23rd st and
12th Ave.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:47:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Laura
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Laura Stamm's Power Skating
Message-ID:
Hi,
I saw this book advertised in Women's Hockey Magazine. Has anyone read
it? What did you think? Was it worth the money?
BTW, thanks to everyone who responded regarding women's hockey camps. I
did find one that will work with my schedule.
Thanks,
Laura
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:54:53 -0400
From: "Caroline Roberts"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Idiot sales clerks/Women's Ice Hockey
Message-ID:
Guess what. I had a similar experience at Paragon. About a year ago I was
looking for roller hockey skates. I picked out a model I liked and asked
the salesman if I could try on the model I liked. He paused then went and
got them. He sat down in front of me and exhaled deeply. "Let me explain
something to you. These skates are not regular in-line skates, these are
for playing roll-er hock-ey (ennunciated as if I might not understand what
these words mean). You should look at some of the other types of skates we
have, they'll suit you better."
I was so taken aback I didn't do anything other than tell him that I play
roll-er hock-ey and that I wanted to try the skates on. Another salesman
said something else annoying too. I can't remember what it was but I
remember thinking later that I might have misinterpreted him because by
that point I was already heated up and primed to read sexism into anything.
I bought the skates somewhere else (Peck and Goody, 8th Ave bet 54th and
55th or something like that, they were very cool). I complained to the
manager at Paragon and to my horror she defended him. I threatened to have
the entire women's hockey community boycott the store (all 40 of us :-)).
It ruined my week.
Caroline
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:00:45 -0400
From: "Ashmun, Julia D"
To: "'email@hidden'"
Subject: RE: Idiot sales clerks/Women's Ice Hockey
Message-ID:
If you post the email or fax number of the store, I'd gladly write them
a nice letter pointing out the 40% national growth rate in women's
hockey (not including Minn) and that women make up 18% of the full time
hockey marketing (according to the National Sporting Goods Assoc.).
> ----------
> From: email@hidden[SMTP:email@hidden]
> Reply To: email@hidden
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 1997 4:12 PM
> To: Subscribers to
> Subject: Idiot sales clerks/Women's Ice Hockey
>
> I am 31 year old woman just starting to learn ice hockey....Just last
> week I
> went into Paragon Sporting Goods in NYC to buy my first pair of ice
> hockey
> skates. I was having what started out ot be a very pleasant
> conversation
> with the sales clerk, up unitl the moment when I mentioned that I was
> going
> to be playing ice hockey, not just using the skates for ice skating.
> I will
> spare you the details of the conversation, but the gist of it was that
> he was
> adamantly opposed to women playing ice hockey. He said it "ruins the
> game."
> He also babbled something about it ruining the "tradition" of the
> game.
>
> After telling him that he was a total idiot, I let the store manager
> know
> about his "opinionated employee." I also walked out, leaving the
> skates and
> all the other equipment I would have bought behind.
>
> That is the last time I will go into that store.
>
> I did, however, find 2 other shops that were very friendly, helpful,
> and
> knowledgebale:
>
> Cosby's (7th Ave. & 32nd St.) and the shop at Chelsea Piers (23rd st
> and
> 12th Ave.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
End of WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 576
*********************************