Parent
WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 597
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Discimation Suits against a Rink
by email@hidden (Rachel Greenhow)
2) Re: Women's Shoulder Pads
by email@hidden (Jules Smith)
3) Re: RE: Comment on girl h.s. hockey in MN
by email@hidden
4) San Diego Tournament
by Maura Grogan
5) papers on women's hockey
by "HARRIS, zharris"
6) Re: Girls teams in Dallas/Fort Worth Area
by email@hidden
7) Age/Size/Attitudes - My final comments
by "James D. Lorino"
8) Re: papers on women's hockey
by Jessica Yeo
9) Re: Women's Shoulder Pads
by Kelly Connelly
10) Age/Size/Attitudes - My final comments
by Tina JW Danzig
11) Re: Age/Size/Attitudes - My final comments
by "Rich + Erin Malinowski"
12) Re: Girl's attitudes and age/size classification
by email@hidden
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 08:58:19 -0500
From: email@hidden (Rachel Greenhow)
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Discimation Suits against a Rink
Message-ID:
6/9/97
Hi all:
Here's a dilemma that our team is facing right now, and I wondered if
anyone had had any direct experience with this, or knew of the legal
precedents in this situation. Thanks in advance for any help you can
offer.
The team I've been playing with has had a regular Saturday night slot for
games with a park district rink here in Chicago. The problem is that last
year they pushed the time back from 9:30 to 10:00 without notification.
Then, when the team would show up at the later time, they would make them
wait even longer to play. This year, the team is asking for a 9:00pm slot,
and asking that the 9:00 start time be guaranteed, and the rink is balking.
Last year, they were threatened with legal action and complied GRUDGINGLY.
This year, it looks like if the grievance process to the park district
board doesn't work, that we're going to actually pursue a discrimation
suit.
What do you all think about this?
Feel free to e-mail responses privately to me at this address:
email@hidden if you don't want to tell the whole list. Look
forward to your responses.
Rachel M. Greenhow
(W) Chippewa Elementary School
12425 S. Austin Ave.
Palos Heights, IL 60143
(708) 388-7260
(H) 1117 N. Dearborn, #603
Chicago, IL 60610
(312) 649-1465
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 97 10:06:20 -0400
From: email@hidden (Jules Smith)
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Women's Shoulder Pads
Message-ID: <9706091406.AA19489@pinion>
Caroline-
Have you checked out the Cooper shoulder pads for women?
I bought them because they had the plastic shell(it's removeable) and
excellent upper-arm coverage (they come down OVER my elbow pads). The only
feature I have any problem with is the rise of the shoulders- it's a bit
high for my liking, but other people I know like 'em high!
Jules #8
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:51:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: RE: Comment on girl h.s. hockey in MN
Message-ID:
In a message dated 6/6/97 12:49:28 PM, you wrote:
<>
Wayne,
It may be none of my business, but I think you may have misunderstood
Dorene's original comment... quote "Take away the checking, and what you
will
have is a smart, fast and fun game of hockey to watch.
She was referring to women's and girls hockey. Taken out of context, I
understand where you would think otherwise. Don't worry, us girls don't want
to take away anyone's God given right to pummel each other to your hearts
content.
Those women who want to play full check hockey, do so at their own risk as do
the men.
In a message dated 6/6/97 12:59:45 PM, you wrote:
<>
I don't get it... Why would you want to create a database of what you termed
to be "SHINNY" hockey? (See your quote below.)
<<
Without hitting forget the
goalie and create a basketball size net. The game would be shinny.
>>
(This message is not meant to step on any cyber-toes. Just pointing out a
contradiction of terms.)
email@hidden
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:46:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Maura Grogan
To: email@hidden
Subject: San Diego Tournament
Message-ID:
Hello All -
The San Diego Women's hockey league is trying to sneak in one more
tournament for this summer - Labor Day weekend 1997. If we can get
enough interest it will be a go.
For specific tournament information and contacts, check out:
http://iquest.com/~paries/tourny/hockey.html, and/or Andria's web
tournament site:
http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~andria/Text_files/tournaments_USA.txt. If
you only have email access, let me know and I will give you the
information.
Thanks.
Lynn Bassler
email: email@hidden
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 97 09:07:00 -0700
From: "HARRIS, zharris"
To: email@hidden
Subject: papers on women's hockey
Message-ID:
I am looking for papers on women's hockey: it's growth, obstacles and
future
(I've heard that there have been a few written)
Can anyone help????? Thanks in advanced!!
Write to me privately at:
email@hidden
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 97 12:03:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Girls teams in Dallas/Fort Worth Area
Message-ID:
>Help....
>
>I am looking for a place for my daughter to play hockey.
>
>So far, I haven't found a place for her. I keep running into to the
>"no girls allowed" crap....
>
>So please help me be a hockey dad.
>
>I can be reached at
>email@hidden
>email@hidden
>or on the list.
>
>Thanks..
>
>
Are you in Dallas? If so, I'm confused.... My daughter, who is 16, has been
playing in Dallas since she was 5. The last 3 seasons she played on both a
coed team and a pure girls team. I would be glad to help you if I can.
Thanks,
Tom Kraemer
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 12:43:20 -0500
From: "James D. Lorino"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Age/Size/Attitudes - My final comments
Message-ID:
These are my final words on my original post. Sorry for the length, just
needed to get this off my chest.
Reasonable people can disagree...
I'm no master of rhetoric, or the English language, but I thought my
original post was quite clear and succinct. Sometimes I wonder if it was
actually read. I have to respond to some comments (nothing controversial).
Most replies were in agreement, and civil.
>>Basketball leagues are classed by height, under 6', 6' to 6'6",
unlimited. What
>>is wrong with considering size when determining divisions in hockey?
These are mainly recreational and gym rat leagues. I don't believe any of
the size delimited pro leagues have prospered. Anyhow, I disagree with it.
>>Tina Winkler Danzig wrote:
>>Personally, I think we should just adhere to the Canadian rules, so that
rules are the same wherever you >>play. We live close to Canada, so when
we play them, whos rules do we play by?
>>I agree with you that divisions by size won't work. I also agree with
you about Hockey (and life!) is a >>competitive, rough, sometimes violent
sport. Although I don't like the fact that it is thought of as >>violent,
rough yes, but I personally think violence should be kept out of all sports.
Here here Tina! I agree consistent North American rules would be great,
whether I agree with the outcome or not. I never intended VIOLENT to be
interpreted as a negative or fight related. I was just speaking of violent
collisions, or a violent date with the net or posts.
>>Jill wrote:
>>I am 31 and new to hockey, but I VIVIDLY remember my HS lacrosse coach's
solution to the cussing >>problem. A bit of good 'ol "reverse
psychology." Punish the rest of the team, and you punish the >>offender.
Everytime somebody utterred @#$% or *^*# , she would make the REST of the
team run laps >>around the field, while the offender had to stand there and
watch. This would make the offender feel so >>guilty, and cause such a
fear of ostracism from the rest of the team, that there were almost ZERO
repeat >>offenders.
I LOVE IT! Will definitely use it.
>>don't remember who wrote:
>>Speak for yourself. Our girls team is made up of a group of wonderful,
funny, athletic bunch of kids. >>I have heard a couple of mild oaths
(nothing more than a parent dropping a glass on the kitchen floor) >>but
that is it. Its the giggling, teasing, and fun that keeps these kids
going. Sometimes I have to go >>into the locker room and drag my kid out
because its getting late and I can't stay at the rink til >>midnight
waiting for these kids to stop playing. On the ice, I have never hear a
word, and there has >>never been a complaint. Each team is different.
DUH!?! I believe my original statement said "our team" and "common." The
whole point in posting is that I speak for myself. Common is more or less
average - if you want to argue the social practices of teens, this is not
the place. I will stand by that it is "common" for teens to experiment
with language, clothes, etc. As for your team, congratulations! It is a
strong statement for the parents and coaching. I applaud you.
>>someone wrote:
>>Excuse me, but can I point out that many sports are governed by size and
not to make it a "rainbow >>coalition", is this elitist treatment on their
part. Is not wrestling by weight? Is not boxing? >>Basketball
(recreational) by height? Even Competitive Trail Riding is by weight
divisions. Are these >>sports that you tiptoe through? OH NO, but these
aren't hockey! Fine I was just pointing out that to >>give more equality
to the sport, especially where girls are playing on coed teams, that size
might be a >>factor. I also suggested this as a NONSEXIST approach,
because size IS a factor in hockey (maybe not >>height) for both a female
player or a male player. ASK Fleury or Kariya or Gretzky.
I will respond with Jules response, couldn't have said it better myself.
Go Jules!
BTW, a member of this list, Jennj, is a competitive mountain biker (hi
jenn). Any thoughts Jenn?
>>Jules wrote:
>>There is no corollary between wrestling or boxing and "hockey". Hockey
is a sport (or game, if you >>like) where the victory is gleaned by a
*team* scoring more goals-and defending their own zone better->>than the
other team. Wrestling and boxing are each "mano a mano" contests, where
the whole point is to >>use one's body in a forceful, physical manner
against one's opponent in order to win a singular "I'm the >>strongest
dude" title. That is the reason there are size classes in boxing and
wrestling. Basketball's >>objective is to put the ball thru a hoop which is
10 feet high, so it is glaringly obvious that a taller >>person would thus
have an advantage over a shorter one.
Additionally, these sports/games show that there is an inherent advantage
in the size and physical characteristics. There is no proof that size, or
lack of, is a distinct advantage in hockey.
>>We live in a area where there are NO GIRLS TEAMS, other than the state team.
I will offer up my ideas in another post.
>>I didn't reply to the list to be flamed here.
My point of view - my post was in no way a flame, nor were many of the
others. You seem to have launched the first flame.
>>Jules wrote:
>>There will never be *equality* in hockey (or any sport) for all
genders/colors/ages/sizes/sexual >>preferences- get used to it, and you'll
do allright. ;)
>>
>>Peggy wrote:
>>The rules change yearly. Rules are there to create equality, otherwise
we would not need rules in the >>game.
RULES to create EQUALITY?? No No No No. Rules are created to maintain the
game within the guidelines designed by the governing body. What are you
looking for??? Equality?? Rule 2.3.87: Faster skaters must wait 2 (two)
strides before approaching slower skaters (2:00 minor).
THE LACK of EQUALITY is the whole point of SPORT! If they were equal,
games would last forever or end in ties.
>>Peggy wrote:
>>If that is the case then why all the discrimination cases that are
hitting the courts and the whole >>Title IX issue???? We have come a long
way baby, but we have far to go even yet.
C'mon Peggy, drop the Gloria Steinam attitude (remember, I am the father of
three girls, no boys. Nothing like that to make you realize your own
chauvinistic tendencies). Yes, there are inequality in athletic
opportunities for women.
Title IX issues deal with the inequality in the structure of athletic
programs and the opportunities for young women. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH
THE RULES AND STRUCTURE OF INDIVIDUAL SPORTS.
>>Peggy wrote:
>>*Intelligent Automation Systems, Inc.
>>From my opinion the only thing intelligent at your company, must be the
automated systems. IMHO!
Completely uncalled for. Well, IMHO, and speaking for myself, you owe
Jules an apology. Slander is the last refuge of somebody with nothing to say.
>>Jules replied:
>>There you go again, making my point for me. You sound awfully bitter
about having been born a woman... >>prejudice exists even for "white
males". It's part of life. If I had held your views on prejudice
>>against women, the option of being a Mechanical Engineer or graduating
Summa Cum Laude from MIT would >>never exist for me. (Neither would being
the Female Captain of an all-male hockey team in the Boston >>area.)
I applaud Jules for not stooping to the slander level. But, If you did,
something like "go burn your bra somewhere else" would have worked. Sorry
Peggy, I'm not as strong as Jules.
>>Rich/Erin wrote:
>>The Shooting Star girls' program played in Chicago's top travel league
(NIHL) as squirts, pee wees, and >>bantams.
Good work! Our squirt team was crushed by the Sparks (I believe a level
below the Flames) in the first game of this past season. Good experience
for our girls though.
Well, thank you for listening to my venting.
Speaking for myself...
-----------------
James D. Lorino
email@hidden
Brookfield, WI USA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:37:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jessica Yeo
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: papers on women's hockey
Message-ID:
Go to the USA Hockey website. The have a bit there.
---"HARRIS, zharris" wrote:
>
> I am looking for papers on women's hockey: it's growth, obstacles
and
> future
>
> (I've heard that there have been a few written)
>
> Can anyone help????? Thanks in advanced!!
>
> Write to me privately at:
> email@hidden
>
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 16:10:24 +0000
From: Kelly Connelly
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Women's Shoulder Pads
Message-ID:
Jules Smith wrote:
>
> Caroline-
> Have you checked out the Cooper shoulder pads for women?
> I bought them because they had the plastic shell(it's removeable) and
> excellent upper-arm coverage (they come down OVER my elbow pads). The only
> feature I have any problem with is the rise of the shoulders- it's a bit
> high for my liking, but other people I know like 'em high!
>
> Jules #8
Yeah...I bought the Cooper shoulder pads last winter and also found
them a bit too high in the shoulders...felt like I was a football
player, not a hockey player. It interfered a bit with my
maneouverability on ice. Herman Munster on skates!! But I definitely
felt well protected, good collar-bone padding too.
Kelly
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:49:06 -0400
From: Tina JW Danzig
To: "INTERNET:email@hidden"
Subject: Age/Size/Attitudes - My final comments
Message-ID:
James,
You can vent anytime.
Tina
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 18:24:09 -0500
From: "Rich + Erin Malinowski"
To:
Subject: Re: Age/Size/Attitudes - My final comments
Message-ID:
The Sparks are actually the girls teams of the Flames.
----------
> >>Erin wrote:
> >>The Shooting Star girls' program played in Chicago's top travel league
> (NIHL) as squirts, pee wees, and >>bantams.
>
> Good work! Our squirt team was crushed by the Sparks (I believe a level
> below the Flames) in the first game of this past season. Good experience
> for our girls though.
>
> Well, thank you for listening to my venting.
>
> Speaking for myself...
>
> -----------------
> James D. Lorino
> email@hidden
> Brookfield, WI USA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:54:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Girl's attitudes and age/size classification
Message-ID:
I agree with Kellie and James - if you start having kids play according to
size, there will be resentment all over the place. Hypothetically, if this
had happened to me, I think I would have been held back. Although I started
playing in high school (2 yrs) I didn't really start improving rapidly until
I got to college and played with and against girls who were much bigger than
me. I'm 5'3" (maybe) about 110 lbs. and I can hold my own against men and
women.
Letting the kids play according to age should help the girls be stronger and
"independent" (for lack of a better word) and it should teach the boys that
girls can play too. Overall, this should help them understand each other
better and bring about a stronger sense of self-esteem. Once you split up
according to size, those who are smaller (especially the boys who have pushy
parents) will feel a lack of self-worth because they will wonder why they
couldn't grow faster or more. I don't think it would affect the girls much,
except I am still trying to figure out how breaking the teams up according to
size would HELP get more girls involved.
They are going to have to play together, big or small, later in life, why
change that?
Take it from someone who is picked on almost daily for being short (I'm
25!!!)- I would hate it if teams had always been broken up according to size.
I was always picked last anyway because they thought I was weak (but I
wasn't).
Jenn
PS - What happens if they are broken up according to size and one of the kids
has a huge growth spurt? Then they have to leave their team, where they've
evened out skill-wise and go to a "bigger" kids team where they may be
stronger (or weaker) in skills.
------------------------------
End of WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 597
*********************************