Parent
WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 595
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Girls teams
by email@hidden
2) RE: Losing Perspective over Age vs Size
by "Manuel Angulo"
3) RE: Girls teams
by "Manuel Angulo"
4) enough already!
by email@hidden
5) Dallas, Texas
by widget
6) Re: Girls playing down in age
by "Rich + Erin Malinowski"
7) Re: Girl's attitudes and age/size classification
by "Rich + Erin Malinowski"
8) Re: Girls teams
by "Rich + Erin Malinowski"
9) Re: Comment on girl h.s. hockey in MN
by "Rich + Erin Malinowski"
10) Re: Girls playing down in age
by email@hidden
11) Girls teams in Dallas/Fort Worth Area
by "Jay Provost"
12) Re: Dallas, Texas
by email@hidden
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:50:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Girls teams
Message-ID:
<< Okay, You people are starting to scare me. Next year I will be a
>freshman in high school. I plan on playing(trying out) for the HS Hockey
>team. I am an advid in-line hockey player, but I have to admit I have
>never played ice hockey in my life. And now there is this constant talk
>about the size and age differences on coed hockey teams. I am 14, 5'6",
>and about 143#. Next year If I make the team I'll be playing against
>seniors practicly twice my size. Okay thats a little exageration, but
>you get my point. I have no idea how the guys will react to having a
>girl on there team, but I am ready, or atleast I thought I was ready, to
>play against them no matter how big they are. Since I started following
>the HS team, no girls have played. Hey, there's a first time for
>everything! >>
Go for it! You have nothing to lose, but as Jake said you MUST start skating
now. I am 17, and I will be a senior next year. I am moving to MN to play my
final year on a boys varsity HS team also. I give you alot of credit for
wanting to change the "no girls yet" thing. Good luck!!!!
Kellie
MHS hockey # 30
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 97 01:58:34 UT
From: "Manuel Angulo"
To: email@hidden
Subject: RE: Losing Perspective over Age vs Size
Message-ID:
BRAVO!!!!!
But this past 10 days of going back and forth over what the average height
is for a 16 year old girl, etc, etc, seems a little pointless to me.
That's my 2 cents.
Thanks,
Rachel Greenhow
Rachel M. Greenhow
(W) Chippewa Elementary School
12425 S. Austin Ave.
Palos Heights, IL 60143
(708) 388-7260
(H) 1117 N. Dearborn, #603
Chicago, IL 60610
(312) 649-1465
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 97 01:55:55 UT
From: "Manuel Angulo"
To: email@hidden
Subject: RE: Girls teams
Message-ID:
If you want to play, play. Don't let all this get to you. If you try playing
and you don't like it or you think it is too rough then you can quit. Granted
this comment is coming from a 35 year old who just began skating about a year
and a half ago, but when I started, there was no women's team in town to skate
with so if I wanted to play I had to play with men -- most of whom stood about
6" and up taller than me and I am 5'6" -- they obviously outweighed me also.
The point is, I wanted to play, I knew hockey was a tough physical sport but
it was my choice to play. I have taken some pretty hard knocks at times, but
I have also given some also. I do now also play with a women's team that has
been recently formed, but make no mistake about it, I have taken some pretty
nice hits from some of them also. All of this to say PLAY -- its better to do
so and find out for yourself than never doing it and always wondering.
Candi
#21 - Houston Harpies
Okay, You people are starting to scare me. Next year I will be a
freshman in high school. I plan on playing(trying out) for the HS Hockey
team. I am an advid in-line hockey player, but I have to admit I have
never played ice hockey in my life. And now there is this constant talk
about the size and age differences on coed hockey teams. I am 14, 5'6",
and about 143#. Next year If I make the team I'll be playing against
seniors practicly twice my size. Okay thats a little exageration, but
you get my point. I have no idea how the guys will react to having a
girl on there team, but I am ready, or atleast I thought I was ready, to
play against them no matter how big they are. Since I started following
the HS team, no girls have played. Hey, there's a first time for
everything!
Michelle
Future Howell Highlander(I hope!)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 02:54:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: enough already!
Message-ID:
I thought respecting each other's opinions is part of what a discussion is
all about!! If two people wish to continue to insult each other, perhaps they
should do so privately.
I don't think that we should necessarily shoot down the idea of making hockey
more equal. Why will women lose all of our respect in hockey simply by
considering some changes that might make the game safer? Yes, Theo Fleury is
a great player even though he is small. But the majority of players never
get to that level. It don't see why it is unreasonable for a parent to want
to try to keep their kid intact so that they last longer whatever they end up
doing. I don't know about you, but a broken collar bone has got to set you
back a bit if you are trying to make it to elite hockey. And yes,
competition is a fact of life. But is it necessary to ensure that every
activity is as competitive as real life? I'm sure that kids will find many
other avenues to develop their "life skills" and compete with their peers.
From what I can tell, there aren't that many avenues for older kids who just
want to enjoy the sport (not everyone can be Wayne Gretzky).
Perhaps the issue of age vs. size will go away by itself. With the
increasing popularity of hockey, it will become ever easier to find a team
that fits your ability level and tolerance for checking. But there's no
reason why hockey should not be changed simply because this is always the way
it has been played.
Women would not have made the many gains they have if they didn't protest the
many ways in which they had to compete with men on *unequal* basis. While
hockey would probably be lower on my totem pole for fighting for equality,
heck, this is a hockey mailing list so why not discuss it?
Anyway, this is my two cents in the discussion.
Have a good weekend everybody!!
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 11:07:33 -0500
From: widget
To: Hockey List
Subject: Dallas, Texas
Message-ID:
Help! Awhile back, I posted a message looking for other teams in
Texas. I got a reply from a girls team in Dallas, but must have deleted
it. (oops).
Well, the Houston Harpies are once again looking for other teams in
Texas. Only this time, we are organized and ready to play. We have
been woring hard, and have practice ice scheduled all summer; I think a
Labor Day road trip would be a great way to start our fall season.
Any interest?
Lea
--
email@hidden
*********
"Forget conventionalisms; forget what the world will say, whether you
are in your place or out of your place; think your best thoughts, speak
your best words, do your best works, looking [only] to you own
conscience for approval." --- Susan B. Anthony, 1863
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:51:33 -0500
From: "Rich + Erin Malinowski"
To:
Subject: Re: Girls playing down in age
Message-ID:
I have never heard of this exception before. Where is it in the USA Hockey
rule book? We have several girls in our area who will have to move up to
Midget this year because they play on co-rec teams.
----------
> From: email@hidden
> To: Subscribers to
> Subject: Re: Girls playing down in age
> Date: Tuesday, June 03, 1997 1:55 PM
>
>
> USA Hockey allows one exception to the age rule in ice hockey. A
> girl is allowed to spend one year longer at Bantam level (i.e 15
> years old) before going on to Midget level. This is to
> compensate for the difference in size at that age between teenage
> boys and girls. This is the ONLY allowance and playing down is
> not allowed at any other level in coed (boys) teams.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 12:55:43 -0500
From: "Rich + Erin Malinowski"
To:
Subject: Re: Girl's attitudes and age/size classification
Message-ID:
Having coached girls hockey for several years in Chicago and been involved
in women's hockey for even longer, I disagree with allowing girls to "play
down" on travel (rep) teams. In our area, the travel league forbids this
playing down by boys and girls. Travel teams are suppose to be the best
players at that age group. Asking for special privledges will hurt the
girls hockey movement. However many of the house leagues allow girls and
boys to play down if they demonstrate that they are not ready for the next
level up (size or definite skill difference). The house leagues are
designed to help get as many kids playing hockey as possible. Some of the
house leagues offer a pee wee no-check division for players (boys and
girls) who do not want to, or their parents do not want them to, check. We
have had several girls on Illinois' AAA boys teams, both as goalies and
forwards, playing check hockey.
The Shooting Star girls' program played in Chicago's top travel league
(NIHL) as squirts, pee wees, and bantams. And they checked.
Girls teams have broader age brackets because there are fewer girls,
without the larger age brackets there would not be enough girls to form an
all-girls team in many areas. There is no need for girls to play down on
boys teams in order for teams to be formed.
Have you tried convincing your youth hockey to do an all-out publicity
effort aimed at getting enough girls for a girls team or two?
----------
> From: Tina JW Danzig
> To: Subscribers to
> Subject: Girl's attitudes and age/size classification
> Date: Wednesday, June 04, 1997 3:46 PM
>
> James,
>
> I feel obligated to reply, seeing that I was the one to start this thread
> on letting girls play down. I started this, because the Squirt A team
> coach thought girls were allowed to play down in USA Hockey the way they
> are allowed in Canadian Hockey. I did some research and found out that
> there is a difference in girls ages, when they are playing on girls teams
> compared to when they are playing on boys/coed teams. For example,
Squirt
> ages on coed teams are '86-87, on girls teams the ages are '85,86,87.
USA
> Hockey does this to try to encourage girls to play. My feelings are that
> if they want to encourage girls to play, and there isn't a girls team for
> them to play on, then the ages they picked for girls on girls teams
should
> be the same for the girls playing on coed teams. I think it is
important,
> especially when kids move into Pee Wee's where there is checking. When
new
> girls to the game, they need the time to develope their skills before
they
> have to check. Now if we didn't have checking in Pee Wee's I wouldn't
care
> about the girls playing down at that age. Certainly the size of both
boys
> and girls is about equal at that age.
>
> I know that our area only has 1 girls team, and they youngest age for
that
> team is 14. My 11 year old daughter has no choice but play on a coed
team.
> Honestly, my daughter can hold her own with the Pee Wee's, but another
> year of skills without checking would be great. Also, if she was able to
> stay back in Squirts, she would be picked for the Squirt A Rep Team.
Which
> would give her 10 times more ice time practices and 10-12 times more
games,
> than on a house team. And as we all know, ice time is the key.
>
> BTW, I personally provide my daughter with many extra hours of ice time
and
> lessons, so she can keep up. But some parents can't afford to do this.
So
> the girls keep falling further behind, defeating the purpose of
encouraging
> more girls to play.
>
> >>Our PeeWee team last year was the worst! A soap opera every
> week. .......I will say we never had a serious problem taunting or
cussing
> at opponents<<
>
> When my daughter played 1 practice with our girls team last year, she got
> off the ice and told me she would never skate with them again. When I
> asked her why, she said they cussed worse than the boys. She was very
> offened by this. It's too bad. The girls must think they have to be
like
> what they perceive the boys to be like. Hockey doesn't have to be a
> "dirty" game, and kids need to change the way they look at it.
>
> I understand how you feel about not wanting kids to play at different
> levels then they are supposed to play at. I can see your point, and
> understand how it could get messy. Personally, I think we should just
> adhere to the Canadian rules, so that rules are the same wherever you
play.
> We live close to Canada, so when we play them, whos rules do we play by?
> In Canada, there is no checking in Pee Wee's, the age divisions are
> different and girls can play down. Seems to me that Canada has been
> playing this game for so many more years than we have in the US, and as
we
> know, they have been very successful. We have adopted their IP progam
with
> great success. I think we should consider adapting their other
guidelines.
>
> >>On the issue of size<<
>
> I agree with you that divisions by size won't work. I also agree with
you
> about >>Hockey (and life!) is a competitive, rough, sometimes violent
> sport.<< Although I don't like the fact that it is thought of as
violent,
> rough yes, but I personally think violence should be kept out of all
> sports.
>
> >>Each child has a skill level and desire, and its up to the
> parents to find the level of play that they can try out for.<<
>
> Unfortunatley, parents don't have a say in this. This is up to USA
Hockey
> rules. That's the point in this whole discussion. We have to abide by
the
> rules, even if we, the parents, think our children should be playing
> someplace other than where USA Hockey places them.
>
> >>This would send a very bad life lesson to kids - I'm small (or big) so
I
> got to play
> down (or up). What does this say? Will this work in business? "Gee
boss,
> Suzy went to a better school than I did. Cut me a break." "Betty is
> prettier than I am, give me special treatment." Or the worst "I'm
> short/tall/late bloomer/et.al, I deserve special treatment" or worst of
> all, "I must be different or deficient in some way." Kids need to
compete
> in their age group!<<
>
> I understand what you are saying, and agree that people need to work
within
> guideline set up by life, and learn to do it well without looking for
outs
> and excuses. I do agree with you here.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Tina Winkler Danzig (Hockey Mom of Jena #14)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:31:16 -0500
From: "Rich + Erin Malinowski"
To:
Subject: Re: Girls teams
Message-ID:
Michelle,
You'll do fine. I know many small girls who play high school hockey and do
well. But I would get out there and practce on your ice skates, there is a
dfference. Good luck!
Erin
----------
> From: Michelle Langley
> To: Subscribers to
> Subject: Re: Girls teams
> Date: Thursday, June 05, 1997 6:53 PM
>
> Okay, You people are starting to scare me. Next year I will be a
> freshman in high school. I plan on playing(trying out) for the HS Hockey
> team. I am an advid in-line hockey player, but I have to admit I have
> never played ice hockey in my life. And now there is this constant talk
> about the size and age differences on coed hockey teams. I am 14, 5'6",
> and about 143#. Next year If I make the team I'll be playing against
> seniors practicly twice my size. Okay thats a little exageration, but
> you get my point. I have no idea how the guys will react to having a
> girl on there team, but I am ready, or atleast I thought I was ready, to
> play against them no matter how big they are. Since I started following
> the HS team, no girls have played. Hey, there's a first time for
> everything!
>
> Michelle
> Future Howell Highlander(I hope!)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:09:54 -0500
From: "Rich + Erin Malinowski"
To:
Subject: Re: Comment on girl h.s. hockey in MN
Message-ID:
I have hired four head coaches and multiple assistant coaches for our
women's program. Most of the coaches thought that coaching women was
easier than coaching men because "women listen better" and are "more
willing to accept instruction". One coach said that women "aren't as
competitive", "can't handle criticism" and often called players who
disagreed with him the "little people". The difference was that they
coahces who found coaching women easier were GOOD coaches and did not have
to rely on intimidation and insults to teach. The bad coach rarely had
anything good to say about a player and often insulted individuals in front
of her teammates. This is not to say that the other coaches don't yell to
the players to hustle, pass, shoot, etc. But the overriding feeling that
the players are valued by the coach and that the coach has faith in each
players abilites, makes the team a much happier environment since we got
rid of the bad coach. (I have seen many boys change teams or quit hockey
all together when confronted with a whold season of a yelling, sarcastic,
unsupportive coach.)
----------
> From: MISS CAROLYN R SIMON
> To: Subscribers to
> Subject: Comment on girl h.s. hockey in MN
> Date: Wednesday, June 04, 1997 5:51 PM
>
> << The coach screamed,
> "finally someone is listening." I think this is typical of girls. I
> was
> reading somewhere that girls listen better and are smarter than the
> boys
> and therefore easier to coach. >>
> Perhaps girls are better listeners. But you don't know how wrong you
> are about how girls are easier to coach. I haven't run across too
> many girls teams who have female coaches, and the coach of my team is
> a male, too. In addition to our A team this year, he also coached a
> boys high school varsity hockey team. In previous years he coached
> peewee and bantam level travel teams. They coaxed him to our team
> this year, and in the end, my team *did* win the league championship.
> My mother asked him after we won if it was harder to coach girls or
> boys. And he said "Girls, by far." See, with guys, if you put them
> down and damage their ego a little bit, they tend to respond and
> improve so they can get your approval. With girls, it's different.
> Most of the people on my team this year were at some time or another
> insulted when he told them they were doing something wrong. So my
> coach had to figure out a different approach (which he never really
> did) than the one he was used to in order to get his players to
> respond to him. It's really easy to say to someone "you're doing this
> wrong" and to have them improve on it. When you have to find a
> completely different approach and succeed with it, that's something
> completely different. So perhaps in initial instruction girls listen
> more. But when it comes to criticism to something specific in
> somebody's game...good luck...
>
> -Carolyn #21
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:51:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Girls playing down in age
Message-ID:
There is no exception for girls - USA Hockey does not allow playing down,.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:01:30 +0000
From: "Jay Provost"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Girls teams in Dallas/Fort Worth Area
Message-ID:
Help....
I am looking for a place for my daughter to play hockey.
So far, I haven't found a place for her. I keep running into to the
"no girls allowed" crap....
So please help me be a hockey dad.
I can be reached at
email@hidden
email@hidden
or on the list.
Thanks..
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 18:52:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Dallas, Texas
Message-ID:
For everyones infor here's the scoop from the USA Hockey meeting in Col.
SPrings
There will be no age change and they've taken out the tag up rule. Those are
the most significant highlights from the meeting - I'll keep you posted as I
hear more.
------------------------------
End of WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 595
*********************************