Parent
WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 592
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Girl's attitudes and age/size classification
by "James D. Lorino"
2) Re:Age vs Size
by email@hidden
3) Age
by Jessica Yeo
4) Comment on girl h.s. hockey in MN
by email@hidden
5) Girl's attitudes and age/size classification
by Tina JW Danzig
6) Re: Help in Changing Girls Ages....
by Tina JW Danzig
7) Re: Help in Changing Girls Ages....
by Tina JW Danzig
8) Comment on girl h.s. hockey in MN
by Tina JW Danzig
9) Re: Help In Changing Girls Ages On Coed Teams -Reply
by email@hidden
10) Re:Age vs Size
by email@hidden (Jules Smith)
11) Re: Girl's attitudes and age/size classification
by email@hidden
12) Comment on girl h.s. hockey in MN
by email@hidden (MISS CAROLYN R SIMON)
13) Re: Comment on girl h.s. hockey in MN
by email@hidden
14) Re: Help in Changing Girls Ages....
by Chuck Collins
15) attitudes
by email@hidden
16) Girls teams
by Jessica Yeo
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 11:26:45 -0500
From: "James D. Lorino"
To: email@hidden
Subject: Girl's attitudes and age/size classification
Message-ID:
Just a few comments:
Someone posted about their younger daughter skating with 14+ year olds.
Well, I don't think we should expect anymore or less from the girls or the
boys. This is a very difficult age, and their attitudes and cussing is
common - BUT NOT ACCEPTABLE. Most of these kids are going through
incredible changes physically and socially - junior high / middle school is
a tough road. Our PeeWee team last year was the worst! A soap opera every
week. The girls were just vicious to each other. Our coaches worked on it
all year. Team building and respect is hard to teach at this age (at least
on the ice). I will say we never had a serious problem taunting or cussing
at opponents (only 1 formal complaint that I know of). The key is parental
and coaching direction. It was always very clear to our girls how they
should conduct themselves in the locker room, in practice, and in games.
Did they listen? Well, I think you all can answer that. I can't recall,
but I think we self imposed a suspension on someone for swearing and
cussing. Final note: our girls midget team (state champions mind you :))
seemed to have none of these problems. While not a significant sample for
research purposes, it appears they grow out of it.
On the issue of playing down for girls (or up, for that matter), our
organization has a strict policy against it. Either situation sets a
dangerous precedent. Playing up, I believe, applies to about .01 % of
players. True team leaders, if they are the best on the team, can learn
leadership and how to raise the level of play of their teammates. The more
relevant point that has been discussed here has been skating down for girls
- I am totally against it for many reasons (a few I'll state). Girls
hockey (in our area) has been working hard for credibility within and out
of our organization for years, to come in and say we have girls that want
to skate down would only hurt our credibility. What would then prohibit a
boys parents from coming in and saying "my boys not good enough, let him
skate down."? I believe for respectability we need to adhere to the rules,
whether in the girls area or boys. That doesn't prohibit anyone from
trying to change the rules, but I think they are fine.
On the issue of size, someone commented that it was the best idea they ever
heard. Well, I don't mean to be a smart ass, but, that's the worst idea
I've ever heard! I'm not trying to be harsh, but... we can't try to build
an amalgamated rainbow coalition so everyone can tiptoe happily through
youth hockey. Hockey (and life!) is a competitive, rough, sometimes
violent sport. There are girls programs and boys programs, they have their
rules. There are levels for all to play at - find it! I was an extremely
big kid when I played, so be it - the little fast guys frustrated the hell
out of me. Each child has a skill level and desire, and its up to the
parents to find the level of play that they can try out for. This would
send a very bad life lesson to kids - I'm small (or big) so I got to play
down (or up). What does this say? Will this work in business? "Gee boss,
Suzy went to a better school than I did. Cut me a break." "Betty is
prettier than I am, give me special treatment." Or the worst "I'm
short/tall/late bloomer/et.al, I deserve special treatment" or worst of
all, "I must be different or deficient in some way." Kids need to compete
in their age group!
Jim Lorino (father of 3 girls, no boys - and never wants to be a girls
peewee coach!)
Girls Level Director
Waukesha County Youth Hockey Association
Brookfield, WI USA
-----------------
James D. Lorino
email@hidden
Brookfield, WI USA
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 10:53:07 -0800
From: email@hidden
To:
Subject: Re:Age vs Size
Message-ID:
----------
> From: email@hidden
> I have been playing hockey for 8 years and I am now 15... I think that girls
should play at their own age group because more than likely if they r teenagers
they will be bigger then the boys anyway.
Excuse me, where do you live??? I am 5'9" and have attended my daughters
tryouts for Midget level, she is 5'4" and 135#. I am usually dwarfed by the
guys trying out for Midget. I have seen some of the guys standing at 6'2" and
others that top the scale at 220#
> There are kids who are small and quite adept at hockey who wouldn't be
happy playing with kids their own size.
This is where a player could play up in category then. This even happens now
with the age groups. If a player is outstanding in his or her level, they can
play up a level, the same can be done based on size. But basing the category on
size will cut down on the 5'2" player (male or female) being injured by a 6'2",
200+#er.
Since the average woman is 5'7" and the average guy 5'9", you would not find a
15 year old girl playing with 16 & 17 year olds, unless they are below average
in height. Also you would rarely find 10 or 11 year olds playing a 14 or 15
year, again unless the younger are large and the older kids are below average.
My daughter at 13 was playing in-house with guys that were approaching 18, the
age difference did not seem to matter at that level. She now plays on a woman's
team and at 18 is one of the youngest with some of the women at 40+. The point
is that it is the skill level and size that does matter not the age. The
woman's team often plays Bantam level travel teams for practice. The size is
comparable to the women's size and the skill the players have give the woman
good competition without checking.
I am just suggesting that age is not necessarily the only factor that needs to
be looked at when setting up divisions. Like someone else said here...the most
injuries happen when there is a significant difference in the size of the
players hitting. It is a fact of life that women, on the average, are smaller
than men. The difference when growing up seems to become apparent at about 15
years old. This is when the boys suddenly shoot up and pass the girls, which
until this time usually are the taller.
Basketball leagues are classed by height, under 6', 6' to 6'6", unlimited. What
is wrong with considering size when determining divisions in hockey?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:37:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jessica Yeo
To: email@hidden
Subject: Age
Message-ID:
I'm 14 and this year was the first year I played on a girls team. I
think that girls should just play with the guys age group if they play
coed. When I played with guys, I was the only girl. The guys wouldn't
hit me, I guess because I am a girl. They didn't start hitting me
until start hitting them. Sometime playing with guys gives the girl an
advantage. They usually have to pick up their game a little bit, and
then when they play with girls they might be a little better. The only
problem with switching from guys to girls is the checking.
Jessica Yeo #4
Michigan Capitals
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 14:40:01 -0600
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Comment on girl h.s. hockey in MN
Message-ID:
I'd like to comment on Kellie's comment that girls hockey is so slow which
is why she wants to play on a boys high school team. Granted, girls
hockey is still developing in Minnesota, however, I wouldn't categorize
Monticello Boys High School Hockey as a typical high school team that
people outside of Minnesota would consider a good Minnesota boys
team. There are two classes in Minnesota for boys high school hockey -
AA and A and Monticello plays in the A class. The girls teams are totally
shocking some of the "good old boys" in Minnesota as they can't believe
how good they are! Dorene
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:38:08 -0400
From: Tina JW Danzig
To: "INTERNET:email@hidden"
Subject: Girl's attitudes and age/size classification
Message-ID:
James,
I feel obligated to reply, seeing that I was the one to start this thread
on letting girls play down. I started this, because the Squirt A team
coach thought girls were allowed to play down in USA Hockey the way they
are allowed in Canadian Hockey. I did some research and found out that
there is a difference in girls ages, when they are playing on girls teams
compared to when they are playing on boys/coed teams. For example, Squirt
ages on coed teams are '86-87, on girls teams the ages are '85,86,87. USA
Hockey does this to try to encourage girls to play. My feelings are that
if they want to encourage girls to play, and there isn't a girls team for
them to play on, then the ages they picked for girls on girls teams should
be the same for the girls playing on coed teams. I think it is important,
especially when kids move into Pee Wee's where there is checking. When new
girls to the game, they need the time to develope their skills before they
have to check. Now if we didn't have checking in Pee Wee's I wouldn't care
about the girls playing down at that age. Certainly the size of both boys
and girls is about equal at that age.
I know that our area only has 1 girls team, and they youngest age for that
team is 14. My 11 year old daughter has no choice but play on a coed team.
Honestly, my daughter can hold her own with the Pee Wee's, but another
year of skills without checking would be great. Also, if she was able to
stay back in Squirts, she would be picked for the Squirt A Rep Team. Which
would give her 10 times more ice time practices and 10-12 times more games,
than on a house team. And as we all know, ice time is the key.
BTW, I personally provide my daughter with many extra hours of ice time and
lessons, so she can keep up. But some parents can't afford to do this. So
the girls keep falling further behind, defeating the purpose of encouraging
more girls to play.
>>Our PeeWee team last year was the worst! A soap opera every
week. .......I will say we never had a serious problem taunting or cussing
at opponents<<
When my daughter played 1 practice with our girls team last year, she got
off the ice and told me she would never skate with them again. When I
asked her why, she said they cussed worse than the boys. She was very
offened by this. It's too bad. The girls must think they have to be like
what they perceive the boys to be like. Hockey doesn't have to be a
"dirty" game, and kids need to change the way they look at it.
I understand how you feel about not wanting kids to play at different
levels then they are supposed to play at. I can see your point, and
understand how it could get messy. Personally, I think we should just
adhere to the Canadian rules, so that rules are the same wherever you play.
We live close to Canada, so when we play them, whos rules do we play by?
In Canada, there is no checking in Pee Wee's, the age divisions are
different and girls can play down. Seems to me that Canada has been
playing this game for so many more years than we have in the US, and as we
know, they have been very successful. We have adopted their IP progam with
great success. I think we should consider adapting their other guidelines.
>>On the issue of size<<
I agree with you that divisions by size won't work. I also agree with you
about >>Hockey (and life!) is a competitive, rough, sometimes violent
sport.<< Although I don't like the fact that it is thought of as violent,
rough yes, but I personally think violence should be kept out of all
sports.
>>Each child has a skill level and desire, and its up to the
parents to find the level of play that they can try out for.<<
Unfortunatley, parents don't have a say in this. This is up to USA Hockey
rules. That's the point in this whole discussion. We have to abide by the
rules, even if we, the parents, think our children should be playing
someplace other than where USA Hockey places them.
>>This would send a very bad life lesson to kids - I'm small (or big) so I
got to play
down (or up). What does this say? Will this work in business? "Gee boss,
Suzy went to a better school than I did. Cut me a break." "Betty is
prettier than I am, give me special treatment." Or the worst "I'm
short/tall/late bloomer/et.al, I deserve special treatment" or worst of
all, "I must be different or deficient in some way." Kids need to compete
in their age group!<<
I understand what you are saying, and agree that people need to work within
guideline set up by life, and learn to do it well without looking for outs
and excuses. I do agree with you here.
Sincerely,
Tina Winkler Danzig (Hockey Mom of Jena #14)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:38:12 -0400
From: Tina JW Danzig
To: "INTERNET:email@hidden"
Subject: Re: Help in Changing Girls Ages....
Message-ID:
I totally agree with you.
Tina
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:38:15 -0400
From: Tina JW Danzig
To: "INTERNET:email@hidden"
Subject: Re: Help in Changing Girls Ages....
Message-ID:
Becky #19,
USA Hockey thinks girls on girls teams should "play down" a year. All I
was saying, was that I think they should be consistent. They let girls on
girls teams play down a year to encourage girls to play. I think if they
want to encourage girls to play, they should let the ages for girls on
girls teams be the ages for all girls who play, whether it is on a girls
team or on a coed team. Understand?
Tina (Hockey Mom of Jena #14)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:46:34 -0400
From: Tina JW Danzig
To: "INTERNET:email@hidden"
Subject: Comment on girl h.s. hockey in MN
Message-ID:
Dorene,
I think girls hockey will totally shock the world with how good it is. I
think the game will be far faster, less violent with more skill than the
boys game. I watch my daughter play in the clinics she does every week.
On Monday night, the coach was teaching them a new skill. (Jena is the
only girl in her clinics.) The coach was explaining to them what he wanted
them to do. Jena was the only kid who did it right. The coach screamed,
"finally someone is listening." I think this is typical of girls. I was
reading somewhere that girls listen better and are smarter than the boys
and therefore easier to coach. Take away the checking, and what you will
have is a smart, fast and fun game of hockey to watch.
Sincerely,
Tina (Hockey Mother of Jena #14)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:06:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Help In Changing Girls Ages On Coed Teams -Reply
Message-ID:
In a message dated 97-06-04 02:59:19 EDT, you write:
<< Wouldn't you have to play girls high school hockey if it were available at
your school? I know that many MN high schools have girls' teams.
>>> 06/03/97 01:51pm >>>
NARCH and KOHO are roller hockey teams....that has nothing to do with
Ice
hockey ages.
BTW, I just thought I would share my story with everyone. I have been
playing
hovkey for 6 years now. (I'm 17) When I 1st began I was the only girl
playing
around my hometown for at least 3 years. I also started out as a right
wing,
and I was playing at my age level, and I was fine.....a few bumps and
bruises
here and there, but that can be expected with a sport like hockey. In the
end
I decided to become a goalie. I find that girls who can compete at their
age
level with the boys in the ned will become the better players. I am moving
to
MN this summer from CA to play boys varsity high school hockey...to me
girl's
hockey is just so slow. Any ways, I just thought I would add my
thoughts!
Everyone have a great day!
Kellie Severson # 30
Monticello HS >>
Nope, I don't have to play girl's high school hockey. Any girl that is good
enough to play on a boy's team is able to do so, as long as she goes through
the same try out as the boys and makes them team.
Kellie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 97 17:38:47 -0400
From: email@hidden (Jules Smith)
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re:Age vs Size
Message-ID: <9706042138.AA02961@pinion>
I totally agree with all James Lorino's points in his argument against
basing categories on size.
I'm getting tired of the size vs. age argument based on all your own
personal heights.
> But basing the category on size will cut down on the 5'2" player (male or
female) being injured >by a 6'2", 200+#er. >Since the average woman is 5'7"
and the average guy 5'9", you would not find a 15 year old girl playing
with 16 & 17 >year olds, unless they are below average in height. Also you
would rarely find 10 or 11 year olds playing a 14 or 15
>year, again unless the younger are large and the older kids are below average.
Actually, the average woman is 5'2", and the average man is 5'8" (where did
you find your info???)
Girls, age 14-15: 5'1", 108 lbs./ age 17: 5'2", 120 lbs.
Boys, age 14-15: 5'2", 112 lbs./ age 17: 5'7". 149 lbs. (Human Factors Handbook)
Even the 95th percentile (tallest)- few and far between- are still not much
of an argument for basing categories on size vs. age. Team sports are based
on a cohesive unit-a cameraderie, if you will- and this is especially
important for teens. Perhaps you should poll the older groups as to how they
would feel playing with people as much as four years younger (oh, but she's
BIG!). There are also the VERY important characteristics of ambition,
maturity, ego and the ability to comprehend tactical issues. It is a rare
13-year-old who possesses the same level of these traits as a 16-year-old.
Why do we not move the large 1st grader up to the third grade? It screws
'em up!
>My daughter at 13 was playing in-house with guys that were approaching 18, the
>age difference did not seem to matter at that level.
Superb! That was probably a great learning experience for your daughter, but
did you ask these guys " if it mattered"???
> She now plays on a woman's
>team and at 18 is one of the youngest with some of the women at 40+. The point
>is that it is the skill level and size that does matter not the age.
An 18-year-old playing with 40+ women is much less of a stretch. It's the
maturity issue (perhaps that's why it is unacceptable for a 13-year-old to
date a 16 or 17-year-old, yet the 18/20 combo isn't an issue.)
> The woman's team often plays Bantam level travel teams for practice. The
size is
>comparable to the women's size and the skill the players have give the woman
>good competition without checking.
It may seem that way, but are you sure it isn't that the energy the younger
players possess makes up for the acquired skills they do not?
>I am just suggesting that age is not necessarily the only factor that needs to
>be looked at when setting up divisions.
What other factors are there? Pretty soon someone will suggest a category
for children from broken homes, and another for kids who hate broccoli (a
HUGE division, by the way) and it will never end!
Like someone else said here...the most
>injuries happen when there is a significant difference in the size of the
>players hitting. It is a fact of life that women, on the average, are smaller
>than men.
And there is an inherent danger in the sport of Hockey. Stop whining about
getting hit and LEARN how to take a hit. (I myself am 5'1" and believe me,
playing with men- it was the first thing I learned. They never heard me
complain, and they never will.)
>Basketball leagues are classed by height, under 6', 6' to 6'6", unlimited.
What
>is wrong with considering size when determining divisions in hockey?
The game isn't played on parquet, and it sure as heck isn't played with a
ball. Height has nothing to do with ability in Hockey. Ask Theo Fleury.
Jules Smith #8 Captain, Shooters
Shut up & SKATE!!!
Intelligent Automation Systems, Inc.
149 Sidney St. Cambridge, MA 02139
617.354.3830 fax:617.547.9727
e-mail: email@hidden Find us on the Web! " www.ias.com"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:20:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Girl's attitudes and age/size classification
Message-ID:
In a message dated 97-06-04 17:41:44 EDT, you write:
<< On the issue of size, someone commented that it was the best idea they
ever
heard. Well, I don't mean to be a smart ass, but, that's the worst idea
I've ever heard! I'm not trying to be harsh, but... we can't try to build
an amalgamated rainbow coalition so everyone can tiptoe happily through
youth hockey. Hockey (and life!) is a competitive, rough, sometimes
violent sport. >>
I agree 100% with you! I think if someone wants to play boys or girl's hockey
that part of playing is playing with some players larger or smaller than
you.....it's the way it's been for a while, and hopefully the way it will
stay. =) It's all part of the game. If girl's trying to compete in boy's
leagues can't deal with it, then they should be playing on a girl/women's
team, or looking into another sport. You know hockey is not for everyone!
Kellie =)
______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________
"Don't tell me what I can't do!"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:25:26, -0500
From: email@hidden (MISS CAROLYN R SIMON)
To: email@hidden
Subject: Comment on girl h.s. hockey in MN
Message-ID:
<< The coach screamed,
"finally someone is listening." I think this is typical of girls. I
was
reading somewhere that girls listen better and are smarter than the
boys
and therefore easier to coach. >>
Perhaps girls are better listeners. But you don't know how wrong you
are about how girls are easier to coach. I haven't run across too
many girls teams who have female coaches, and the coach of my team is
a male, too. In addition to our A team this year, he also coached a
boys high school varsity hockey team. In previous years he coached
peewee and bantam level travel teams. They coaxed him to our team
this year, and in the end, my team *did* win the league championship.
My mother asked him after we won if it was harder to coach girls or
boys. And he said "Girls, by far." See, with guys, if you put them
down and damage their ego a little bit, they tend to respond and
improve so they can get your approval. With girls, it's different.
Most of the people on my team this year were at some time or another
insulted when he told them they were doing something wrong. So my
coach had to figure out a different approach (which he never really
did) than the one he was used to in order to get his players to
respond to him. It's really easy to say to someone "you're doing this
wrong" and to have them improve on it. When you have to find a
completely different approach and succeed with it, that's something
completely different. So perhaps in initial instruction girls listen
more. But when it comes to criticism to something specific in
somebody's game...good luck...
-Carolyn #21
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:32:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Comment on girl h.s. hockey in MN
Message-ID:
In a message dated 97-06-04 16:49:45 EDT, you write:
<< I'd like to comment on Kellie's comment that girls hockey is so slow which
is why she wants to play on a boys high school team. Granted, girls
hockey is still developing in Minnesota, however, I wouldn't categorize
Monticello Boys High School Hockey as a typical high school team that
people outside of Minnesota would consider a good Minnesota boys
team. There are two classes in Minnesota for boys high school hockey -
AA and A and Monticello plays in the A class. The girls teams are totally
shocking some of the "good old boys" in Minnesota as they can't believe
how good they are! Dorene >>
Dorene--
I'd just like to say that I never said specifically that I was speaking of MN
girl's hockey, although I think in some situations it does apply to them. I
was in MN in late January of this year, and I saw a few girl's games....I saw
Apple Valley vs Eagen, and I was told that these are two of the best teams in
the state, and if all that is true, then I stick with my conclusion that
girl's hockey is slow. Sure there were a few "good" players on each team, but
nothing that I considered "INCREDIBLE" or "amazing."
I would also like to comment on your criticism on Monticello's team. I
realize they are A class, and thet there are schools out there that are AA,
but there hockey is 50% better than any girl's team in MN I have seen. That's
why I have made my decison to play boy's hockey. They shoot faster, skate
faster, and have more skills. Any ways, there are my reasons.
Kellie
------------------------------
Date: 04 Jun 97 16:28:43 PDT (Wed)
From: Chuck Collins
To: email@hidden
Subject: Re: Help in Changing Girls Ages....
Message-ID:
> Becky #19,
>
> USA Hockey thinks girls on girls teams should "play down" a year. All I
> was saying, was that I think they should be consistent. They let girls on
> girls teams play down a year to encourage girls to play. I think if they
> want to encourage girls to play, they should let the ages for girls on
> girls teams be the ages for all girls who play, whether it is on a girls
> team or on a coed team. Understand?
>
> Tina (Hockey Mom of Jena #14)
Hmmm, I don't think they are actually letting them "play down". They need
3-or-more-year groupings (12-U, 15-U, 19-U) because this gives each team
50% more eligible players than the 2-year groupings for boys/mixed. If you
had as many girls as boys playing in the US, you'd probably see a different
structure. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the rules are identical for the three
divisions for girls.
- CHuck Collins
email@hidden
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 19:47:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: email@hidden
To: email@hidden
Subject: attitudes
Message-ID:
In a message dated 97-06-04 17:41:44 EDT, email@hidden (James D. Lorino)
writes:
<< Just a few comments:
Their attitudes and cussing is common - BUT NOT ACCEPTABLE. >>
<< It was always very clear to our girls how they should conduct themselves
in the locker room, in practice, and in games. Did they listen? Well, I
think you all can answer that. I can't recall, but I think we self imposed a
suspension on someone for swearing and cussing. >>
I am 31 and new to hockey, but I VIVIDLY remember my HS lacrosse coach's
solution to the cussing problem. A bit of good 'ol "reverse psychology."
Punish the rest of the team, and you punish the offender.
Everytime somebody utterred @#$% or *^*# , she would make the REST of the
team run laps around the field, while the offender had to stand there and
watch. This would make the offender feel so guilty, and cause such a fear of
ostracism from the rest of the team, that there were almost ZERO repeat
offenders.
:-)
Jill
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:00:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jessica Yeo
To: email@hidden
Subject: Girls teams
Message-ID:
I just have to comment of the fact that somenone said that if girls
dont want to play the same age boys than they should play with girls.
I find that wrong. Some areas don't have girls teams. Where I live,
the closest teams are in Bowling Green. and they are coed, but there
are few girls there. The closest girls teams are in Ann Arbor and
Lincoln Park, Michigan, which are about 2 hours away. Most parents
don't want to drive that far. But, fortunately for me, my dad will. My
mom only went to one gome last season, but that's because she doesn't
like the ride.
Jessica Yeo #4
Michigan Capitals
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------------------------------
End of WOMEN-IN-HOCKEY Digest 592
*********************************